Death and Abortion

by Theo Warner & Brock Lawley on February 15, 2011

In this, the sixth of an eight-part weekly point/counterpoint-style debate, Theo Warner and Brock Lawley continue by considering death and abortion from their respective positions. Secondly, Theo and Brock also respond to each other’s articles from last. Next week, the debate continues with an article entitled “The Person and the Family.” Next week will also include a response and rebuttal to this week’s articles. Your comments are appreciated.

Theo Warner

This week, I will discuss (I) abortion (II) euthanasia, and (III) the death penalty.

(I) Abortion. There are three points in pregnancy which interest us: (1) moments after conception, (2) some arbitrary point between conception and birth and (3) moments before birth. Liberals and Conservatives agree and are confident that moments before birth, a full-term fetus is viable and should be protected. Any attempt to illegalize abortion outright, however, presumes as much certainty about the status of a zygote, moments after conception. Such certainty typically emerges from religion. It can respected in private morality, but not by government in its laws. And failing any other basis to establish personhood and the ensuing rights of a fetus in the moments after conception, abortion is an option and choice of the woman. Liberals, therefore, defer to an arbitrary point between conception and birth, thus establishing the only way to protect the clear rights of a full-term fetus and the clear rights of women.

No basis of establishing the personhood of a fetus or asserting its rights has been offered, but were it, it would need to be compelling because the interests women have in preserving their right to have an abortion are also compelling. The arguments here are several and I will simply enumerate them and leave their full expounding for another occasion: (1) diseases can be detected and then prevented by abortion (2) legalized abortion makes abortion safe; illegalized abortion makes abortion unsafe and results in the deaths of thousands of women each year (3) unwanted pregnancies increase crime because (a) poor woman are more likely to have unwanted pregnancies and are less able to care for a child and (b) unwanted babies are more likely to become criminals and (4) abortion allows women to accomplish a biological equality with men.

(II) Euthanasia. Liberty insists that the dignity of human autonomy extends to ending suffering by ending life. Indeed, it is repugnant to liberty to suggest that in a moment of such importance, the moment we approach our own death, in which our character is most tested, government should be the defining authority of what we cannot do. Liberalism is opposed to government interference in private lives.

(III) The death penalty. Today, the death penalty is a racist and biased policy and, for that reason alone, should be placed on a moratorium until its inequalities can be addressed by legislatures. Despite this happenstance, however, the philosophical issue continues to divide Conservatives and Liberals. Criminals, of course, forfeit their liberties but we know that not all liberties can be forfeited. Criminals cannot forfeit their freedom from torture, not can society justly demand it. The absurdity that emerges from a system which cannot torture but can kill a criminal suggests that the death penalty cannot exist in a free society. Likewise, it emerges from a primitive, backward-looking, and retributive ethic.But, we know that our desire to exact the same crime on those who hurt us leads to what Dr. King called “a descending spiral.” The death penalty asks us to ignore our responsibility to the humanity of the guilty and listen only to our lesser instincts.

Brock Lawley

ROE V. WADE has always been a house built upon shifting sand as far as constitutional law is concerned. Judge Bork best articulated this when he said “there is no basis in the constitution for the privacy right” which has become the false foundational basis for the right to abort life for over thirty years. Bork correctly argued that because the constitution is silent on the issue of privacy, so should the Supreme Court. When the courts begin creating concepts what they are really doing is rewriting the constitution.

The issue of abortion should have never been decided by a bunch of lawyers. The issue should be decided democratically, by the state legislatures. In fact the American people have long been hijacked by the issue of abortion. This explains the deep seated feelings of animosity that surround Roe v. Wade. The overwhelming majority of Americans are not in favor of unlimited abortions. This is exactly why pro abortion advocates deeply fear a democratic solution to the issue. They know that if put to a vote, the American people will not adhere to their death agenda.

I steer clear of using the word pro-choice for I too am pro-choice. I think the choice should always be life. How dare someone tell a woman what she can and can’t do with her own body, right? This is the classic and most persuasive argument for Roe .v Wade, but is it a sound argument? Can a woman choose to use her body to steal without legal consequence? Can she legally use her body to do drugs? Can she even legally use her body to prostitute for money? The truth is there is already standing legal precedent governing what women can and can not do with her body. So what about the other feeble arguments defending Roe v. Wade? According to the now disgraced planed parenthood, only three percent of all abortion cases have anything to do with a women’s heath. Only another three percent are the consequence of the baby having health problems. Less than one percent is a result of rape of any kind. So what about the other 93 percent? We all know the truth is that they’re the result of millions of people escaping the consequences of careless and reckless sexual behavior.

Life begins at conception. It has never been proven otherwise. If the fetus is human life, that trumps any argument you can make about the individual freedom of the mother. If that is the truth, and make no mistake life does begin at conception, then what we are dealing with in this country is complete and total genocide every year. It is our basic human responsibility to preserve the life of the unborn. Not to do so is appalling.

What if tomorrow the courts made it legal to kill any infant under the age of 90 days? What if a few Judges in ceremonial dress arbitrarily declared that life didn’t begin until the first human word was spoken? What if until that utterance you could legally kill. There would be rightful revolt the next day. Our collective conscience has been numbed! Roe v. Wade is beyond bad law; it is the battle for the right to kill.

Below, Brock Lawley and Theo Warner offer their responses to last week’s article: “The American Classroom.”

Theo Warner

Not a great round for me, I admit.

I was hoping to direct the conversation towards Conservative anti-intellectualism, one of the most troubling features of both this debate and the obnoxious movement of Conservatives today which seem to be in rebellion against the Republican institution. Instead, we talked about vouchers, a topic which really doesn’t interest me.

Nevertheless, there seemed to be several questions that we considered this week. (1) Are schools really so bad? (2) Will vouchers really result in competition? (3) If they did, is it really good? (4) Can a voucher system possibly be fair? (5) Can government abdicate its responsibility to educate?

(1) The condition of schools in America today is difficult to assess. In part, I’m convinced that those who point to low test scores don’t fully appreciate the purpose of education, which is not to produce high test scores. It is not even to educate children well. Children, of course, have the choice to be educated poorly and many make that choice freely. And, the precise nature of a children’s education (vocational schools, for example) also make test scores a relatively poor measure of the nation’s educational system. I will concede that America’s schools are in need of improvements, but Brock depicts schools as meat unfit for a dog. There\’s something unrealistic in that appraisal.

(2) Vouchers will not result in competition. A competition could only exist if students were equally desirable. Private schools certainly do not desire students equally. And government cannot compel that equality without destroying private schools.

(3) Competition is generally good. We don’t incentivize everything, though. Would a private police force be better for us than a public police force? Or a private fire-fighting force? Or private libraries and hospitals? These experiments have always failed us in the past. We understand that while competition is good for sports teams or good in business, collaboration is also good. Between libraries, collaboration is better than competition. Hospitals that share expensive equipment serve more people than those who compete. If we create a system in which schools compete, can we accept that it will therefore be good that some schools will fail?

(4) Vouchers will almost certainly result in religious schools being funded at taxpayer expense.

(5) Finally, a voucher system asks government to abdicate its responsibility to educate. As much as private schools are the right of the wealthy to create and sustain, it is only public schools that counter to economic exclusivity of private schools; the danger is that education could become a property of the aristocracy — government has an interest in preventing this. And it cannot abdicate that interest or its responsibility.

Brock Lawley

The last essay from my challenger showed more skill in the art of the dodge than one might expect from a heavyweight prize fighter. I do not blame him for falling back on heel or shifting focus. Liberalism has left him nothing but whitewashed tombs to defend in the area of education.  After exposing his empty arsenal, he elected to accuse conservatives of being anti-intellectual. “What has entered the Conservative movement is an anti-intellectualism. “And, because we are discussing education, I accuse Conservatives of the ilk described above as being fundamentally disinterested in improving American education.” This is ducking, bobbing, and weaving that would make Mike Tyson proud.

My opponent claims “here in this Conservatism, we find the first political philosophy that openly rejects academia and the tools of modern science.” This is pure nonsense. He hopes this will simply nod the head of the average liberal drone bee, leaving his words never to be pollinated. Theo is representative of so many on the left with such a statement. They’ve become so accustom to adorning a self-appointed intellectual crown they fail to ask if they even have a kingdom.

Karl Marx shared Theo’s elitism. He called it “the blaze of ideas” that would set whole nations on fire and consume whole generations. Consume them they did!  Theo’s rhetoric is undoubtably referring to the conservative failure to bow at the feet of those whose careers are built on the creation and dissemination of ideas. Whether such ideas or their creators have made those around them better or worse is a question the left never asks. To do so would leave them challenged to find a bloodthirsty tyrant of the 20th century not supported, aided and beloved by the leading “intellectuals” of the time.  This would prove true when looking not only at the “intellectuals” in the despots own country but in faraway democracies where “intellectuals” were free to speak ill of such horrors.

The worth of such “Intellectuals” in a free society is needed but greatly exaggerated by Theo and the Left. Their intangible ideas are judged in soundness only by other intellectuals; such intellectual inbreeding is the reason we so often hear the echos of clear historical failure leaving their lips.

The vast majority of scientific, economic and societal achievements of the 20th century were not the achievement of “intellectuals” in the way my challenger would certainly define them.

The Wright brothers in no way resembled the upper-east-side variety that would undoubtably cause my opponent to blush. Neither were the conquers of polio, or the creators of the electronic revolution we now navigate. No, these people were the producers of the real, the tangible, the product or service. Such men and women were measured by what produced results. A ruler by which modern “intellectuals” will not dare allow themselves to be measured.  Such a measurement of guided and useful intellect embodies the conservative spirit of entrepreneurship, ingenuity and handwork. Let the Left have Marx.

Related posts:

  1. Is There a Secular Reason to be Against Abortion?
  • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

    I guess I’ll first comment about the comments about last week. Theo, you say that vouchers won’t work to increase competition, saying that you essentially worry that private schools will only keep the good students. I think that we all have seen how the government’s purse never gets opened without conditions. That’s how the government forces its way with states and anyone else that wants that money. Similarly, I think that a condition that accepting a student voucher means that they cannot expel that student without cause similar to what is required to expel a student from a public school. I think that is a completely viable workaround and it would satisfy your problem with it.

    Comparing schools to a police force etc. is a total non-argument. There are very good reasons to have a unified and single police force, fire department etc. I can think of few to no good reasons to have unified schools. What does one monolithic government run school system have as a benefit over smaller, privately run schools? I don’t see it, and you didn’t provide any suggestion. About the only thing I can fathom is buying power for books and supplies. Maybe bussing. I went to a public school with no busses when I was a kid. I don’t think that is really a problem. I also see no reason that costs should be any issue, since the money is there or the kid wouldn’t be going to that school.

    As for abdicating its responsibility to educate, that is what is happening in effect in way too many schools. I agree that most of that lies on the students, but I know from personal experience that environment and attitude of teachers and fellow students changes everything. There are good public schools. I went to one extremely good one when I was a kid. It isn’t those schools that are the target, it is the ones where parents don’t think their child gets a good enough education and/or the ones that parents think their kids aren’t safe that are the problem. Parents are stuck sending their children to these schools, and you would tell them to send their child to a problem school instead of offering any alternative. That is unforgivably cruel in my opinion.

    As for today’s debate, my opinion is resting on this blog about this issue, and I had a long discussion in the comments there, so I don’t want to rehash too much. Instead, I will say that Brock needs to explain things more.

    What is it about life that makes it worthy of protection? Life itself isn’t enough, since it seems perfectly okay to kill animals for food, and plants just for fun, yet they are life. If you mean intelligent life, what is intelligent about an embryo? Does it think? Can it feel?

    You bring up that there is no right to privacy. That is just plain wrong. The constitution enumerated specific rights that the framers thought necessary to mention, but included in liberty rights are all rights not specifically reserved to the government. That means that all rights remain with the individual that are not taken specifically.

    This means that we have a right to pretty much everything, but it doesn’t mean that it is a fundamental right that deserves protection. I think claiming it’s not a fundamental right is also flawed, since fundamental rights are those rights that it would be a shock to the conscious to have violated. Would you want the government to just give out your personal financial information without cause? Is it okay for the government to put a camera in your home to make sure you aren’t doing anything illegal? These things are privacy issues, and it would cause pretty much everyone a great deal of distress. That is why it is a fundamental liberty right, but I wouldn’t extend privacy rights in the case of abortion much further than divulging information.

    These are all problems that I know will be brought up in these comments, and although I believe there are good answers, I must admit that you really failed to make a strong enough case in your argument. I’ll have to chalk up another point to Theo here.

    In the end, I think the abortion debate is rather dull. Even if Roe v. Wade was overturned tomorrow, it would change nothing. Some states might decide to criminalize it, but it’s not going to make abortions not available where it is now available, and it won’t make it available in states where it’s not currently available.

    • theowarner

      If you think that the power of the purse can and should compel private schools to behave in certain ways, you are asking government to destroy the autonomy of private schools. There are a crap load of laws and oversight that public schools have to contend with. Sooner or later, it will all flow in private schools per your little proposal. You’re just renaming public schools and calling the private. Physical plant, hiring practices, curriculum standards, SPED, free lunches, retirement benefits… all of this is mandated by the state in public schools. And you’ll be opening the door to it in private schools. You will have destroying private schools.

      My analogy about police force is actually not an analogy. I am pointing to a real need to have non-privatized government services. Schools are also a non-privatized government service and it’s good. Of course, there are private police forces and there are private schools. They may be better in every regard, but we have a civic need to our own, public police force and a need for a public schools system. It’s preposterous to suggest that government should not be in the business of schools.

      • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

        I think that private schools that want that money have to deal with the consequences, just like states that take TANF funds have to deal with the consequences.

        If I am paying you to paint my car red, you had better paint my car red or I can take you to court. That’s how the world works.

        Now, you don’t think there are curriculum standards for private schools? Every child is required to be taught specific things, even if they are in private school or even home schooled. Free lunches would have to be dealt with if that becomes a problem. If the government wants private schools to offer free lunches to these students, they better open up the purse again.

        You still haven’t given a single reason why schools should not be privatized. You just say that they shouldn’t be, apparently by fiat. This “government good – private bad” kind of attitude doesn’t sway me in the slightest if that’s all it is. I can’t divine any possible reason from anything you have said that even remotely hints at why public schools are necessary at all, much less why there should be no privatization. Do you have a reason?

        • David John Wellman

          A: “Here are several reasons why X should not happen.”

          B, some time later: “You still haven’t given a single reason why schools should not be privatized.”

          If Theo hasn’t responded to this post, it’s likely because he, like me, sees no need to respond to a B-type mindset.

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            The fact is, there is no logical response. That’s the most likely reason why neither Theo, nor you have any rebuttal.

          • David John Wellman

            We do have rebuttals. Proof: we have presented rebuttals.

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            Hmm, I don’t see them for some reason. Are you possibly talking about some dream you had? You do realize that in order for a rebuttal to be offered, it must be expressed in some way that other people can see it right?

          • David John Wellman

            I’m not responsible for your inability to see, whether it be biological or willful.

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            No, you are not responsible for my inability to see. You are responsible for never having given a rebuttal in the first place. Those are two extremely different problems.

          • David John Wellman

            Well, since we have given rebuttals, I’m in the clear on both counts.

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            Well keep thinking that then. You didn’t give a rebuttal to what I said, so you’re not in the clear in my view.

          • David John Wellman

            That’s a relief. If any part of my life were in accordance with your view, your views being what they are, I’d have to hide in a hole for the rest of my life.

            Those who can read have already seen our rebuttals, even if you haven’t or won’t. That is sufficient.

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            I’ve seen your rebuttals to things totally different than what I was talking about, but nothing pertaining to what I said. So, if you’ve said it, you better find it and cut and paste it, because until then you’re talking out an orifice that isn’t meant to be talked out of.

          • David John Wellman

            Certainly, because I’m always willing to spend an hour or so of effort to c&p data for a person who is perfectly capable of finding the information himself and who’s nice enough to tell me I’m talking out of my ass. I’ll get right on that.

    • MrJmm999

      “In the end, I think the abortion debate is rather dull. Even if Roe v. Wade was overturned tomorrow, it would change nothing. Some states might decide to criminalize it, but it’s not going to make abortions not available where it is now available”

      Actually, it WOULD make it illegal where it is currently legal. A state cannot pass a law tht says “no abortions” because of Roe v. Wade. Do you honestly think Texas would not pass that law? Hell, North Dakoda is trying to do that right now and everyone knows they simply cannot do this without overturning Roe v. Wade.

      • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

        The only change would be that they could make it illegal to get an abortion. There are tons of states that make it illegal to give abortions. Where have you been? Right now, if you want an abortion in Utah, for example, you have to leave the state, because it is illegal for doctors to give them except in extreme cases.

        • MrJmm999

          “There are tons of states that make it illegal to give abortions. Where have you been? ”

          No..you are listening to people who don’t know what they are talking about. Before viability, (about 6 months) the woman can get an abortion for whatever reason. However, after viability, there are plenty of regulations that step in and apply. For example: In the state you mentioned: Utah. You can get an abortion. That abortion must be by a licensed physician, and must be performed at a hospital if done after 90 days. Abortions are prohibited AFTER the fetus is viable (6 monthsish) unless the mother’s health or life are in danger. Partial birth abortion is banned in Utah. However, your blanket statement that “abortion is illegal” in Utah is absolutly NOT true. I’m guessing you heard you can’t get a partial birth abortion in Utah and jumped right to…”you can’t get an abortion in Utah”

          http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_OAL.pdf

          Roe v. Wade said that a state may not prohibit abortions prior to viability. I’m sorry but your statement “where have you been” is absolutely laughable considering your total lack of understanding about abortion laws. Something about a pot meeting another kitchen device….starts with a “K”.

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            I have to admit I am currently wrong. I am going by what I was told by an attorney I worked for fifteen years ago. Since the current law says it was enacted this year on the website, which only means they made some change to it, I can’t tell when or if they changed the law since back then from not allowing them to allowing them.

            That doesn’t change the fact that any state can make abortion illegal to perform if it wants to, and it has been done recently. Roe v. Wade only made it illegal to charge a woman with a crime for getting an abortion.

          • Mitchmoreland

            Okay, you may have been told something by an attorney 15 years ago…but I’m an attorney right now. You cannot make it illegal to perform an abortion in state A…because doing so would be taking away the women’s constitutional rights in that state. A law can be unconstitutional as written or as applied. IF a state tried to write a law that made it illegal to perform an abortion…it would be constitutional as written…but unconstitutional as applied. Either way…the law is still unconstitutional. You simply can’t do this. A state may not make it illegal to perform an abortion. There are states that STILL have active statues that make it illegal to perform and or get an abortion. (I think Texas and Kansas). Abortions ARE performed in those states because the law is not enforced. (Not enforced…you have nobody to challenge the law. In other words..you would have no plaintiff that has standing to challenge the law).

            I could cite case law on this all day long but I think the proof is the law as it stands. Abortions are legal in all 50 states. Think about this for a second. If they could make access to abortions impossible in their state…why aren’t ultra conservative states doing it? Are you seriously suggesting that all a state would have to do after Roe v. Wade was say “okay…you can get an aborition…but performing an abortion is illegal” and they DIDN’T do it. (Actually a few tried and got shot down quickly)

            I honestly think you have been given some bad legal advise 15 years ago from an attorney that failed to a) understand the implications of the holding in Roe v. Wade or b) he/she had an agenda.

            Again, you cannot pass a law that as applied would violate the constitution. If you want to make an argument that “the woman could go to another state to get an abortion. I’m sorry but that doesn’t work either. A state cannot deny their citizens their constitutional rights….in hopes that another state may grant those rights. I imagine you like the 2nd amendment. Imagine a state that made it illegal to SELL guns. The constitution says nothing about selling guns….it only speaks of owning guns. I’m sorry…but the constitution just doesn’t work that way.

  • Thereprieve

    I am AMAZED at the stark contrast between last weeks submissions compared to this weeks. Theo spent part of his previous essay decrying conservatives as “anti-intellectuals” and then this week he says “some arbitrary point between conception and birth”. In the six weeks of debate, this is hands down the least intellectual statement made by either participant. The human body grows and develops more in those 9 months than at any other time in it’s life. There’s nothing arbitrary about it. Almost equally intellectually dishonest is the notion that the support of life is “religious” in nature. You are horribly confusing correlation with causation. I would argue that even if there were no religion, a majority of human beings would still support life over convenience. Proof can be found in the 2 essays themselves. Brock focusses on the vast majority (93%) of abortions that are for simple convenience. While Theo sadly attempts to justify all abortions with the +/-6% that might be the product of rape or could cause the illness in the mother. This equates to justifying all murder because some are committed in self-defense.

    I also cannot wait to be regailed with the disease(s) that can be prevented by abortion. PLEASE expand on that one Theo! Pretty please!

    Winston Churchill is often given credit for some variation of the quote “”if you’re not a liberal in your 20′s, you have no heart, but if you’re not a conservative in your 40′s, you have no brain”. More recently, as demonstrated by Theo’s 6 essays, liberalism has attempted to control the monopoly on having the “heart and the brains”. If I were to measure that statement on this weeks debate alone, I’d say that modern liberalism has neither the brains nor the heart. And since we’re not in Kansas anymore, I’d say it could also use a heafty dose of courage. Modern liberals know that a fetus is alive and that all life is worthy of protection. This isn’t some religious philosophy born inside the walls of a church. It’s a philosophy of compassion born in the soul of humanity itself. But if your goal is to win at the polls and not in humanity, abortion disguised as a simple choice for women gets you some free, cheap, and easy political capitol that you don’t deserve and you freely spend like a drunken sailor.

    I am glad to see that we agree on the death penalty. But I must point out the screaming hypocrisy of your support for the punishment of death for being undesirable by one person as opposed to support for life when one is undesirable by a plurality of society. But I really shouldn’t have to point it out, it speaks for itself.

    As for Brock, I give you your second consecutive debate victory. But I would caution you against statements like: “Life begins at conception. It has never been proven otherwise.” That’s equivalent to saying “The flying spaghetti monster exists, it’s never been proven otheriwse”. I know that you know better, but in the strict limits you have on space and your obvious passion for the topic, I understand how you could make this mistake.

    And to both of you, I thoroughly enjoy this debate and this format. I hope this is not just a one time thing here on 12Tuesday and that you will encourge the debate(s) to continue.

    • theowarner

      “I am AMAZED at the stark contrast between last weeks submissions compared to this weeks. Theo spent part of his previous essay decrying conservatives as “anti-intellectuals” and then this week he says “some arbitrary point between conception and birth”. In the six weeks of debate, this is hands down the least intellectual statement made by either participant. The human body grows and develops more in those 9 months than at any other time in it’s life. There’s nothing arbitrary about it. Almost equally intellectually dishonest is the notion that the support of life is “religious” in nature. You are horribly confusing correlation with causation. I would argue that even if there were no religion, a majority of human beings would still support life over convenience. Proof can be found in the 2 essays themselves. Brock focusses on the vast majority (93%) of abortions that are for simple convenience. While Theo sadly attempts to justify all abortions with the +/-6% that might be the product of rape or could cause the illness in the mother. This equates to justifying all murder because some are committed in self-defense.”

      This paragraph that you wrote is very strange. Maybe you can iron it out for me.

      Intellectuality and smartness are different and I feel like saying that because you say that “some arbitrary point” is about intellectuality or a lack there of, I’m totally lost at what you’re trying to say. Are you trying to say that’s it’s just a dumb idea?

      When I say an “arbitrary point,” I’m not sure how you are contradicting the idea by saying that the human body grows during those nine months of pregnancy. Yes… that’s that pregnancy is. I’m say that we draw the line arbitrarily within those nine months.

      Imagine I had said: We need to draw the line arbitrary on Route 95 between New York and Washington D.C. And you said: “People drive cars on that road! There’s nothing arbitrary about it.” You see? It’s like you don’t get what arbitrary means or what we’re talking about… I don’t know. Maybe I don’t see your point.

      As for my relationship between religion and the pro-life position, you are correct that I cannot and have not established a perfect causation. I accept that. I am asking for ANY justification for believing that a fetus as all the rights of personhood that is NOT religious. That is the burden of the pro-life argument.

      More to come.

      • Salitica

        “I am asking for ANY justification for believing that a fetus (h)as all the rights of personhood that is NOT religious.”

        evolution gives a very good answer for this and I think for all elective abortions a time table identifying when this specific event occurs. It’s called sentience, at what point in the developing fetus does that fetus begin to reason? The counter point is that all higher life forms on earth reason, and they have this ability as a result of the function of the brain. Humans have a higher reasoning ability and can communicate, this is called sentience, and so the point at which the first spark of intelligence should be determined.

        Any point prior to that, the zygote is not a person, it is just a collection of morphing cells which only has the potential of being a sentient being, and should be considered disposable. But once the brain reaches a critical point in it’s evolution then that collection of cells becomes a sentient being and is fully protect-able as an individual person, I named my daughter at 22 weeks, to me she was a person. The two other collection of morphing cells which came before her I needed to dispose of because once i was not ready and once it automatically happened. I didn’t feel the necessity to name them.

        • theowarner

          Yeah.

          So, you’ve drawn a line between conception and birth.

          Exactly.

          Now, yours isn’t arbitrary. It’s at the point that certain recognizable features emerge. Sure. That’s arbitrary to me because I can’t recognize when those trains emerge in contrast to “about to emerge” or “emerging.” But, whatever. You draw a line.

          We agree.

      • Clay James

        ¨I am asking for ANY justification for believing that a fetus as all the rights of personhood that is NOT religious. That is the burden of the pro-life argument. ¨

        This line of reasoning leads to too many problems:

        Give me ANY justification for believing that a 6 month old baby has all the rights of person hood that is NOT religious?

        Like you said, this is arbitrary, however, this can also be applied to humans after the point of birth and throughout their life. This same kind of logic would trump a pro-choice advocate trying to show someone why it is wrong to “abort” their 6 year old child.

        If taken from a purely secular standpoint, there is no right answer to the personhood question, just agreements between people. What gets me is people trying to rationalize these arbitrary decisions as if there is a right answer to them. Whether I think that life begins at 12 weeks after conception or 2 years after birth, saying that this is the case because the fetus is developing certain attributes or because the baby can now walk, does not make this any less arbitrary.

        • MrJmm999

          “Give me ANY justification for believing that a 6 month old baby has all the rights of person hood that is NOT religious?”

          Okay..you asked for “ANY” justification.

          “All persons BORN or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State DEPRIVE ANY PERSON OF LIFE, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”

      • Thereprieve

        “This paragraph that you wrote is very strange. Maybe you can iron it out for me”

        Perhaps I misunderstood your point. When I initially read your statement I got the impression that your point was “whatever happens inside of a womb has little meaning to me in the argument”. To me, it sounded as if you were saying: “I’m just to smart to have to deal with it”. It came off as arrogance. But after rereading, I see that wasn’t your point. My apologies.

        Yes, everyone seems to have their own idea of when life begins. From conception to viability, from the first heartbeat, to complete development, the starting points are numerous. But the one thing that the majority seems to agree on is that it actually happens in the womb. Taking most far-left liberal arguments to their logical conclusion, as long as the umbilical cord is still pulsating, ending the life of the child should be permissible. But, nowadays, the liberal bandwagon has changed horses. Today even most liberal and feminist groups seem to agree that the third trimester seems to be the Mason-Dixon line of the woman’s right to choose versus child’s right to life. And the fact that this arbitrary line is drawn while the child is still in utero brings serious doubt to the residence/parasite argument(s).

        Someone else has already mentioned “A Defense of Abortion” by Judith Jarvis Thomson. She posed the question referred to as the comatose violinist. That you awaken to find yourself hooked up to a very famous violinist who has failing kidneys. The Music Lovers have gotten together and found that only you have the right blood type to save his life. You have the ability then to disconnect, though he will certainly die if you do. Or you can be the “good samaritan” and remain hooked up for the duration. The flaws in this argument are too numerous to mention in a comment section of a blog. But the biggest one, standing out in my mind, is that in her story, you were kidnapped and drugged and woke up to find yourself hooked up to the violinist. In the case of over 98% of all pregnancies, you willingly participated in an act that got you “hooked up” to a fetus. For that 98%, you knew that getting hooked to the violinist was a consequence of one particular action. So, in my book, you would not be filling the role of a good samaritan, you’d be fulfilling your responsibilites for your personal actions. To keep this conversation rational a distinction has to be drawn between the abortion for convenience that makes up better than 98% of all abortions, and the rape/incest/ectopic pregnancies that make up less than 2% of all abortions.

        “I am asking for ANY justification for believing that a fetus as all the rights of personhood that is NOT religious.”
        If human decency is religious in nature, then sure, I’ll concede that being pro-life is religious. But the fact remains that I was pro-life before I found God. And I had parents who were not very “spiritual” to say the least. But I have in me a sense of protectionism for weaker beings. And I would argue that I’ve always had it. For instance, the time I stood up to the bully in pre-school for pulling little Amy’s pigtails. No church had taught me to protect a fellow human being from harm, it is purely instinctive. And when you examine the process of pregnancy, a child is placed into a mothers womb for protection. Nature saw this as the best way for the human species to survive and propogate. Otherwise we could all be hatched from an egg. Nature has determined that the mother’s womb is the safest place for it’s survival. and when it’s survival is threatened, then my basic human instinct is to offer it protection. If that protection must come in the form of laws, then so be it.

        This is a tough topic to discuss because those on both sides are often passionate. I hope that the decorum I’ve come to expect here on 12tuesday will remain in tact. So far so good for the most part.

        • Bjørn

          “Taking most far-left liberal arguments to their logical conclusion, as long as the umbilical cord is still pulsating, ending the life of the child should be permissible. But, nowadays, the liberal bandwagon has changed horses”

          Eh, what? You’re implying that abortions up to the point of birth has historically been a liberal position (since the liberal bandwagon has changed horses now, as you put it). What on earth gave you that idea? Where’s your source that supports that implication?

          “you were kidnapped and drugged and woke up to find yourself hooked up to the [comatose] violinist”

          Your critique here is somewhat trivial, especially since Thomson herself acknowledged that the thought experiment was most applicable to cases of rape, and doubly so, since Thomson actually afforded the fetus the “right to life” at conception on equal terms with the violinist.
          Also, you’re misrepresenting the thought experiment. The music lovers hook you in while you are asleep (admittedly by breaking in), they did not drug you down and kidnap you. It doesn’t make much philosophical difference, but it looks like an attempt to misrepresent Thomsons case by making it much more similar to rape than the original thought experiment actually was. The reality is that, right now, you are hooked up to the violinist. Whether you consented to be hooked up doesn’t really change the equation. Willing participation isn’t really the issue, it’s about the moral situation that exists now.

          Lastly, just some statistics. There’s a bit more than 6 million pregnancies in the US each year. 1 million end in “fetal loss” (miscarriages and stillbirths), 1.25 million end in induced abortions. With that in mind, why aren’t the anti-abortion camp focusing as much on medical advances to prevent miscarriages as they are on abortions? Where’s the zeal when it comes to protecting those fetuses?

          Oh, and how do unplanned pregnancies enter into your equation. 40% of pregnancies are unplanned. An unplanned pregnancy would surely relate to Thomsons dilemma.

          • Thereprieve

            “What on earth gave you that idea? Where’s your source that supports that implication?”

            A youtuber named KennyTheSage. He made that argument in a video, and a couple more defending that position. Many of his fellow pro-choicers supported his position in his comment section. I urge you to check it out.

            It’s been a few years since I read Thompson so you’ll have to forgive my imprecise memory.

            “they did not drug you down and kidnap you.”

            My recollection was that you were in an induced coma, if that’s wrong then again, my mistake and it’s really irrelevant to the original story or my rebuttal anyways.

            “why aren’t the anti-abortion camp focusing as much on medical advances to prevent miscarriages as they are on abortions?”

            Who says they aren’t? In fact, I support the research into a completely artificial labratory made womb. Then there would be no excuse for abortion and those that still supported it would only be able to do so to satiate their blood-lust.

            Your “fetal loss” analogy fails as well. Millions of people die of natural causes every day, why is the law so concerned about the few that are murdered? They were all going to die anyways, right? What’s the zeal when it comes to protecting life from being taken at the hands of other?

            “…40% of pregnancies are unplanned.”

            I don’t see how that factors into anything at all? What’s the relevance?

          • Bjørn

            KennyTheSage’s videos are no longer available. So I don’t really see how he can be considered the model for what constitutes liberalism, even “far left liberalism”. And in any case (without having seen his videos) being left-wing doesn’t guarantee that you are a liberal. After all, communism (far left) is as representative of liberalism as fascism is of conservatism, which is not at all…

            Do you have any available sources that supports your claim, other than “some (unavailable) comments on a few videos on youtube”?

            I’m glad you support medical research, but using terms like “satiate their blood-lust” with reference to pro-choicers is hardly appropriate. Why you ask? Well, you brought up death by natural causes as opposed to murder and compare it to fetal loss and abortion. There is a key difference between a murder and an abortion: The victim of a murder is person with legal rights, among other things. An aborted fetus is not a person with legal rights. No crime is committed during an abortion. I know you’d like it to be a crime, but it is not. Your conflating an actual crime with something you’d like to be a crime. They’re not the same.

            Quick question: Let’s say that a fetus is a legal person, with rights. If a women unknowingly conceives and then runs a marathon, or has a few too many drinks or something; in any case it results in a miscarriage. That would have to be defined as manslaughter if your position were correct. It seems you would have to support that position, but how do you legally distinguish between accidental miscarriages and induced abortions? How do you resolve the legal results of your position?

            “40% of pregnancies are unplanned”
            Yeah, I wasn’t really making an argument from that figure, just highlighting that they are quite appropriate when considering Thomsons dilemma. So rather than 2%, you have 40%. It doesn’t change anything, just showing you that Thomsons dilemma is a lot more relevant than you make out.

          • Thereprieve

            I didn’t realize that Kenny took all of his videos down. That’s news to me. My apologies.

            As for another representative of liberalism, let’s use President Obama. Every initiative to block late term abortions he has voted against. And his excuse is usually runs along the lines of “there’s no provision for a woman’s health.”. So, logically, if a woman were to suffer from cramps while the umbilical cord is still attached, aborting the baby is still okay in his book. After all, it’s not a person yet (to him).

            “The victim of a murder is person with legal rights…”

            What sickens me about your paragraph and subsequent defense of abortion is that you’ve removed any morality from your decision. You’ve basically said that “the law is the law and nothing else matters”. It’s certainly a good thing that people appealed the law on moral grounds when it came to slavery. Otherwise, you would be able to satiate your blood-lust by killing your slave. Since it wasn’t a person legally, the morality behind it didn’t matter.
            It’s also law that gay-marriage is illegal. Are you going to tell all of the gay people to “sit down and shut up”? After all, the law is the law.

            “…but how do you legally distinguish between accidental miscarriages and induced abortions?”

            The exact same way you distinguish between a murder, a manslaughter, and a justified self-defense killing… trial by a jury of your peers. It’s not that complicated.

          • Bjørn

            “I didn’t realize that Kenny took all of his videos down.”
            No worries.

            “President Obama…”
            There’s a difference in voting against initiatives blocking late-term abortion without provisions for women’s health, and voting against initiatives blocking late-term abortion initiatives. There’s also a difference between voting against initiatives blocking late-term abortion initiatives and being fine with fetacide. So no, you don’t have a leg to stand on there.
            “So, logically, if a woman were to suffer from cramps while the umbilical cord is still attached, aborting the baby is still okay in his book. ”
            No, that isn’t logical. Incidentally, really late-term abortions (after week 24) account for 0.08% of abortions, and bet you couldn’t find a single case where it wasn’t done to save the mother’s life, or some other extreme reason.

            “It’s also law that gay-marriage is illegal. Are you going to tell all of the gay people to “sit down and shut up”? After all, the law is the law.”
            The difference is that when we discuss abortion, anti-abortionist attack the law by claiming that abortion is murder, thus pre-supposing the legal scenario they are advocating. Gay-marriage is about equal rights, which is already the legal scenario. And quite frankly, the fact that it is still illegal in parts of the US is a testament to how backward the US can be.

            “abortion, accidental miscarriages, induced abortions for medical reasons vs murder, manslaugther and self-defense”
            You’re attempting to draw a parallel between murder and abortion, and I get that. My point about accidental miscarriages is that if your argument about legal status etc. were true it would have to be the case that accidental miscarriages were manslaughter, and thus a very serious criminal offense. And that obviously doesn’t make any sense at all.

          • Haysoos

            “Millions of people die of natural causes every day, why is the law so concerned about the few that are murdered? They were all going to die anyways, right? What’s the zeal when it comes to protecting life from being taken at the hands of other?”

            Obviously the law has doesn’t do anything about people who die of natural causes because what would it do, prosecute cancer, or a bad heart? However, his point about fetal loss isn’t saying there should be as much legal zeal around miscarriages as with abortion, but that there should be as much general cultural zeal. For example, there is as much cultural zeal around curing child-onset leukemia and other diseases that kill children as there is around stopping child-killers. However, there is not nearly as much zeal around stopping miscarriages as there is around stopping abortion, showing that we, as a culture, including the pro-life side, do not value the lives of fetuses as much as some say they do.

            Also, regarding our acceptance of people dying of natural causes: since everyone dies, our society has made peace with that fact, and we have decided that if someone dies over the age of 80 from natural causes, then “it is their time.” This is because no one has ever lived significantly longer than that. However we could reach a point where medical technology is such that someone dying at 80 is considered “way too young to die.” It could reach a point that we do have as much zeal about prevent death from natural causes if we are able to prevent those natural causes.

            “those that still supported it would only be able to do so to satiate their blood-lust.”

            wut.

          • MrJmm999

            “In fact, I support the research into a completely artificial labratory made womb. Then there would be no excuse for abortion and those that still supported it would only be able to do so to satiate their blood-lust”

            No…nobody here is using rhetoric to demonize those that may oppose them. I have no problem with your “artifical womb”. However, I do have an issue with you claiming anyone who opposed your artifical womb idea was only doing so to satiate their blood lust. Seriously, are you able to have a discussion without demonizing anyone who disagrees with you.

            I’m guessing you have come up with a way raise these extra 1.37 million children each year? I suggest those that speak in the type of rhetoric you do be forced to raise these 1.37 million children PER YEAR. (half joking). Seriously who is going to raise these children? Who is going to pay for it? Will Brock’s “charity” idea for poverty take up the slack here? Average cost to raise a child is about $13,000 PER YEAR. That excludes the extra cost to the govenment to educate these extra 1.37M students EVERY year.
            You think adoptions are going to take up the slack? Well, we adopt about 120,000 children per year. Let’s triple that. Okay…now we only have an extra 1 million children to raise every year. Who’s going to do it.? Who’s going to pay for this? The government? Well, you are talking about an additional cost to just raise the one years worth of “extra” children(without adding in the cost of educating these children in public schools) will be $13,000,000,000. Now, every year for the next 18 years there will be ANOTHER $13 billion. Eventually this cost would level off at a pricey $234,000,000,000 PER YEAR. (And we haven’t even educated these children yet)
            Now, what were you saying last week about “small government”?
            I think your idea to solve the abortion problem is great However, have you really thought this through? Sorry for all my blood lust in this post.?

    • MrJmm999

      Would you agree that abortions should be available if the life of the mother is in danger? What about in cases of incest and rape?

      “Almost equally intellectually dishonest is the notion that the support of life is “religious” in nature”

      Do you deny that the VAST majority of the funding, rhetoric and Pro-Life movement is religously motivated. Hell, Google pro life and you are taken to thousands of churches, and religious groups web sites. There simply is not a secular pro life movement. This is all being driven by religion. I think it is intellectually dishonest for you to ignore this.

      I agree with you that the legal line that is drawn is NOT arbitrary. However, the legal line is viability.

      “Modern liberals know that a fetus is alive and that all life is worthy of protection.”

      Thank you for having the aboslute arrogance to tell us what we know and don’t know. I do NOT think a fetus is a human being. I don’t think life begins at conception. I don’t think a fetus is “worthy” of constitutional protections. However, please feel free to tell me what I do and don’t know if it makes your argument easier. You want to talk about intellectual dishonesty?

      You tell me what the answer is for a woman who feels she is not capable of raising a child? You DEMAND that she deliver this baby to term? THIS is telling a woman what she must do with her own body. Would you also demand this if her life was in danger?

      • Salitica

        “Do you deny that the VAST majority of the funding, rhetoric and Pro-Life movement is religously motivated. Hell, Google pro life and you are taken to thousands of churches, and religious groups web sites. There simply is not a secular pro life movement. This is all being driven by religion. I think it is intellectually dishonest for you to ignore this. ”

        there are quite a few secular pro life groups out there, below is just one of them (though they do seem to catholic in origin) However, I am anything but religious. I actually have personal reasons, but there are many reason to be ant-abortion is the cases of elective abortion.

        there are only two reasons to me to have an abortions
        rape and the life of the mother. Recently the catholic church excommunicated a hospital and it’s entire staff because the head nurse and doctor there decided to end a tubular pregnancy, there really is no reason to keep a tubular pregnancy, as 100% of the time it kills the mother and the baby at the same time. I Believe having children is a choice, some times we get a head of ourself and have a child too early, but in the case of rape, the woman had no choice, and a rapist should not be the proud father of a rape baby.

        http://secularprolife.org/

        • MrJmm999

          “there are quite a few secular pro life groups out there, below is just one of them (though they do seem to catholic in origin)”

          This is a problem. Religiously motivated organizations appear to be disguising their religious aganda by saying it’s secular. When you scratch off the thin veneer you uncover religion. I am seeing this more and more from religious institutions. Intellegent Design proponents claim they are NOT basing thier “theory” on religion. Proponents of Abstinence Only Education go to school boards and claim they are secular. You go to their website and quickly find they are indeed religiously based. They are doing this in an attempt to gain credibility and get around Establishment Clause issues. However, they tend to talk out both sides of their ass many times. For example, I heard Bill Donahue (President of The Catholic League) on Fox news during christmas complaining that we were taking the “christ” out of Christmas. “Many have forgotten the TRUE meaning of Christmas”. Okay, WITHIN THE SAME HOUR, an atheist came on and was saying that Christmas should not even be a legally recognized Federal Holiday. Donahue took a 180 degree turn and said “Oh no…Christmas is secular in nature. When people think Christmas they think about Santa Clause and Christmas Trees, totally Secular”. I see the same thing when the Constitutionality of the National Day of Prayer comes up. They try to claim that Prayer is really secular. It’s a shell game.
          As you youself admitted, upon closer inspection, this “secular” website appeared to have religious origins. I do not deny that SOME pro-life proponents do not base their position on religion. However, who is lobbying Congress, who is sponsoring Pro Life Rallies, who is marching, who is protesting outside abortion clinics and courthouses? Religious Groups.

      • Graffight

        “Would you agree that abortions should be available if the life of the mother is in danger?”

        Yes, this is in fact the only time an abortion should be legal. Just like justifiable homicide if something is going to kill you i think you have the right to protect yourself.

        What about in cases of incest and rape?

        First we have to understand that this is the minority of abortions…around 6%. That being said I am against abortion even in these cases. First I don’t think that it is ok to punish the child for the sins of the father, especially not by the death of the child. The child is innocent. When it comes to incest it is the same, there are many children who are born out of incest and we would not think of killing them, so what exactly does living in their mother’s stomach do to disqualify them from their right to life?

        “You tell me what the answer is for a woman who feels she is not capable of raising a child? You DEMAND that she deliver this baby to term? THIS is telling a woman what she must do with her own body. Would you also demand this if her life was in danger? ”

        These are two different issues, but let me ask you this…if the child was 4 years old and the woman felt she was not capable of raising the child would it bo ok to kill the child then? If not what’s the difference?

        • MrJmm999

          “First I don’t think that it is ok to punish the child for the sins of the father, especially not by the death of the child”

          Uh…who is talking about killing children? Fetus. I know you pro lifers like to “accidentally” mix up the terms….but you KNOW there is a difference…right?

          “The child is innocent. ”

          What child? I would think that you would agree that in these sorts of discussions…words do matter. Or are you intentionally going for the outright appeal to emotion.

          “First we have to understand that this is the minority of abortions…around 6%.”

          First…that’s not what I asked. Second, i’m sure that the 6% of women who ARE raped or victims of incest and who are FORCED to carry to term thank you. Strange, why is it I get the feeling you are male and could not possibly understand what this must be like for these women.

          Again, for someone who has seemed to champion individual rights…you sure seem to not care about women’s rights. Are you at all disturbed that women overwhelmingly support their right to terminate a pregnancy? Are you concerned that you may be moralizing on an issue where you simply don’t have any “skin in the game”??

          “These are two different issues, but let me ask you this…if the child was 4 years old and the woman felt she was not capable of raising the child would it bo ok to kill the child then? If not what’s the difference?

          Wow…so rarely does my question get absolutely ignored and then followed up immediatly by a question. However, I will answer the question. (Unlike you) No..i would not support killing a child.

          Apparently you don’t understand the difference between “fetus” and “baby” or “child”. You may want to also study the issue of viability with regards to abortion. Sorry…humans/babies/children/people/citizens have rights. A fetus does not have any rights. Sorry

          • Graffight

            “Uh…who is talking about killing children? Fetus. I know you pro lifers like to “accidentally” mix up the terms….but you KNOW there is a difference…right?”

            It is up to you to show me the difference between a fetus and a child.

            I would argue that all differences come down to one of 4 arbitrary things:Size, Location, Level of development, Degree of Dependency. Not one or any combination of these arbitrary things is enough to disqualify the child from being considered a valuable human life.

            we are not mixing terms, they are all different levels of the same thing, like a baby is different from a teenager or an adult…they are still valuable human beings who should be protected.

            “What child? I would think that you would agree that in these sorts of discussions…words do matter. Or are you intentionally going for the outright appeal to emotion.”

            No, this is not an appeal to emotion, this is what the unborn is. No matter what stage of life a human is in, it is still a human being valuable and deserving of it’s right ot life. Any attepmts you make to disqualify them will be arbitrary and unjustified.

            “First…that’s not what I asked. Second, i’m sure that the 6% of women who ARE raped or victims of incest and who are FORCED to carry to term thank you. Strange, why is it I get the feeling you are male and could not possibly understand what this must be like for these women. ”

            Some will, some won’t….but ALL of the children who get a chance at life will…

            “Again, for someone who has seemed to champion individual rights…you sure seem to not care about women’s rights. Are you at all disturbed that women overwhelmingly support their right to terminate a pregnancy? Are you concerned that you may be moralizing on an issue where you simply don’t have any “skin in the game”??”

            I’m interested in the rights of ALL humans, including the unborn. My lack of “skin in the game” is irrelevent. I feel the same need to speak for the innocent as you would for the a 4 year old who would be killd by his mother.

            “Apparently you don’t understand the difference between “fetus” and “baby” or “child”. You may want to also study the issue of viability with regards to abortion. Sorry…humans/babies/children/people/citizens have rights. A fetus does not have any rights. Sorry”

            no need to apologize, it’s ok. I understand the differences just fine, it’s just that none of these differences disqualify the unborn from their right to life.

          • MrJmm999

            “It is up to you to show me the difference between a fetus and a child.”

            Wow…okay. How about this…THE DEFINITION of the word “fetus” ”
            Fetus: The unborn offspring from the end of the 8th week after conception (when the major structures have formed) until birth. Up until the eighth week, the developing offspring is called an embryo”
            Blacks Law Dictionary “Fetus: An unborn child. Unborn Offspring.

            Until birth it’s a fetus…after birth it’s a child. You know this. We are talking about a MEDICAL procedure and a LEGAL issue here.
            I’m sorry but the distinction is NOT arbitrary and neither is viability. When can these fetuses survive on their own generally?

            “4 arbitrary things:Size, Location, Level of development, Degree of Dependency”

            At any point when typing this did you think “hey…it’s not arbitrary…it does depend on size, location, level of develpment and degree of dependency….thus…by definition…NOT arbitrary. Again, these are not the issues…but good examples of how they are NOT arbitrary. As i have pointed out…the issue is viability…(which is effected by things like size, level of development and is all basically degree of dependency”. Again…textbook example of NOT arbitrary. .

            “we are not mixing terms, they are all different levels of the same thing, like a baby is different from a teenager or an adult…they are still valuable human beings who should be protected”

            I agree..I’M not mixing terms..you are. Fetus and baby, are not the same thing. A fetus is NOT a citizen, it is NOT a child. The foremetioned are granted civil rights. You say they “should” be protected…i may or may not agree. However, i’m not about to put this above the choice of the woman to do what she wants with her child.

            “Some will, some won’t….but ALL of the children”

            Nope…again…not children…fetuses.

            “My lack of “skin in the game” is irrelevent. I feel the same need to speak for the innocent as you would for the a 4 year old who would be killd by his mother.”

            No..your lack of skin in the game is relevant. You dictate to women what they MUST DO….while you sit back and moralize. AGAIN…you say child when you mean both Fetus AND child. Why do you do this? I would be very concerned for a mother that wanted to kill her BORN child. However, if she wanted to terminate the fetus SHE is carrying around in HER body….that is HER choice. Again. the difference is legally viable and not viable.
            Btw…the ACTUAL distinction is divided into trimesters.

          • thegillotine09

            “Wow…okay. How about this…THE DEFINITION of the word “fetus” ”
            Fetus: The unborn offspring from the end of the 8th week after conception (when the major structures have formed) until birth. Up until the eighth week, the developing offspring is called an embryo”
            Blacks Law Dictionary “Fetus: An unborn child. Unborn Offspring.”

            Actually the definition you cited defines a fetus as an “unborn child”. By that definition, a fetus is a child, specifically an unborn one.

            “However, i’m not about to put this above the choice of the woman to do what she wants with her child.”

            So… you’re arguing against child protection laws in this sentence.

            “You dictate to women what they MUST DO….while you sit back and moralize”

            This is completely irrelevant. Those who believe this is a matter of life and death *are* ethically justified in strongly voicing their concern for what they view as murder and I think it’s extremely obtuse to assert that the motivations of pro-lifers are about forcing women to do something rather than defending the unborn. Because of their basic and easily understandable premise that a fetus should be considered a human life, they are as justified in protesting against abortion as you would be in protesting against child abuse.

          • MrJmm999

            “Actually the definition you cited defines a fetus as an “unborn child”. By that definition, a fetus is a child, specifically an unborn one”

            Again, you apparently you miss the point. There IS a legal and medical distinction between a child who has been born and an unborn fetus. Why do you insist on trying to get around this fact. You know as well as i do that you are making an appeal to emotion.

            “Those who believe this is a matter of life and death *are* ethically justified in strongly voicing their concern for what they view as murder and I think it’s extremely obtuse to assert that the motivations of pro-lifers are about forcing women to do something rather than defending the unborn”

            YOU make a distinction and you know it. If someone was going into their office and killing 4 year old kids on a daily basis…you know as well as I do that you would kill that person. Hell, I would. You speak in this sort of “murder” talk as an emotional plea…however if you REALLY thought it was indeed murder..you would “kill” him and you would be legally justified in doing it. However, you know there is a difference….so you talk the rhetoric….but you make the distinction when it comes to your actions.

            I deal with child abuse nearly every day of my life. I do stand up for child abuse and represent the child’s best interests in court often. However, I have never been hired by a family to protect their fetus. I have never been asked to speak for the best interests of a fetus. Wonder why that is?

          • Graffight

            “YOU make a distinction and you know it. If someone was going into their office and killing 4 year old kids on a daily basis…you know as well as I do that you would kill that person. Hell, I would. You speak in this sort of “murder” talk as an emotional plea…however if you REALLY thought it was indeed murder..you would “kill” him and you would be legally justified in doing it. However, you know there is a difference….so you talk the rhetoric….but you make the distinction when it comes to your actions.

            I deal with child abuse nearly every day of my life. I do stand up for child abuse and represent the child’s best interests in court often. However, I have never been hired by a family to protect their fetus. I have never been asked to speak for the best interests of a fetus. Wonder why that is?”

            unfortuately laws are not always correct. Some people do feel that it is murder and do kill abortion doctors…i don’t agree with this practice, because I don’t think it the right way to go about this, but don’t act like some don’t feel that way.

            Just because something is ok under the law doesn’t mean that it is right, slavery was ok under the law at one point and it was perfectly legal to kill your slaves…why? because they were not considered human beings under the law. sure medically they were human…masters had babies with their slaves all the time, but as you can see. just because there is no distinction medically and a distinction legally doesn’t mean that the law is right…just like slavery, you are disqualifying a group of people from being human then making it ok to kill them. That’s not just…

          • MrJmm999

            “Just because something is ok under the law doesn’t mean that it is right, slavery was ok under the law at one point and it was perfectly legal to kill your slaves…why? because they were not considered human beings under the law”

            This is BARELY relevant to the discussion. You are calling abortion murder. It is clearly NOT murder. As i said if it were murder, you and every pro-life advocate would be in agreement that killing the abortion doctor was self defense (Actually, it’s usually called defense of others i think) You use words like “murder” to make a point, but you don’t treat it like it is murder by your very actions. Again, if a man was murdering 100s of 4 year olds a day NOBODY would bat an eye at someone blowing his head off to defend those children. However, this isn’t the case. Most “normal” people do not ACT like this is murder. Even VERY religious people that claim it is murder and it is against god’s will ACT in a manner that shows they know it really isn’t murder.

            “just because there is no distinction medically and a distinction legally doesn’t mean that the law is right…just like slavery”

            Actually, i’m not sure what side you are agruing on here. There is a distinction between a fetus and an baby. There is a distinction medically, legally (and that’s why I gave you a medical and a legal distinction).

          • Graffight

            It would not be in the best interest of the pro life case to start killing abortion doctors…that would likely repel even more people from our point of view. It would also do nothing to stop abortions, this is a battle that does have to be in part won at a mental level. People need to understand that the unborn is a valuable human being. It’s interesting because just like you say i don’t act like it’s murder most people don’t act like it’s not a bad thing…almost everybody agrees that there should be less abortions…if there is nothing wrong with it, why do people care at all how many of them happen? There are abortionists who I think are terrable i personally think Margaret Sanger should have been shot in the head, she is one of the most racist and evil people I’ve ever read about…In fact her self proclaimed goal in abortion WAS eugenics.

            We want to put an end to the killing of inocent people, killing the abortion doctors isn’t going to put an end to abortion, but making it illegal will drastically reduce it’s availability.

            “Actually, i’m not sure what side you are agruing on here. There is a distinction between a fetus and an baby. There is a distinction medically, legally (and that’s why I gave you a medical and a legal distinction).”

            I’m saying that there is no difference, they are different stages of the same thing. The legal distinction you gave calls them a fetus an “unborn child”…that’s exactly what i think it is. the medical distinction says “unborn offspring” which is “the immediate descendant or descendants of a person, animal”…these words can be used interchangibly.

          • MrJmm999

            “It would not be in the best interest of the pro life case to start killing abortion doctors…that would likely repel even more people from our point of view.”

            You were claiming that this was outright murder. I pointed out that IF it was murder, you would be morally justified (legally too) to defend these unborn children. My point was that while you claimed that this is murder…you sit back and watch as Doctor X kills how many “kids” a day? Now, your justification for allowing WHAT YOU CALL MURDERS to continue day after day after day, is that stopping the murderer would be a public relations nightmare for the Pro-Life Movement. Again, the cries of “murder” are absolute rhetoric on your part. If you REALLY thought it was murder, you would be doing something to stop it and not blame your lack of action on public relations issues.

            “It would also do nothing to stop abortions, this is a battle that does have to be in part won at a mental level.”

            Killing 40 abortion doctors wouldn’t save the “lives” of innocent “children”? Come on, do the math. How many people in this nation are “pro life”? You could stop how many “murders’ from talking place if you and just a VERY small percentage of those that claim this is “murder”….truly acted like this was indeed murder. Instead you throw out the word “murder” as an emotional plea….and sit back and treat it just like any other medical procedure you happen to not like. Again, actions vs. words.

            “People need to understand that the unborn is a valuable human being.”

            More rhetoric on your part. I posed this question elsewhere but will ask you specifically. You act like there is no real difference between a fetus and a child. You claim they are both “people” or “children”. I know plenty of women who have had miscarriages. Not once did the family have a funeral. Not once was there any of the “tools’ that people use to grieve the loss of a loved one used. Yes..the woman was upset because of the lost HOPE of a child…and so was the father. We do indeed put some special significance on the difference between a child that has been born and a fetus. Please have the intellectual honesty to at least admit this. In EVERYTHING else we treat the fetus and the child as different. ONLY in this debate do people pretend that we treat a fetus and a child the same. (Please don’t respond with..”well we SHOULD treat them the same”. When parents, family and friends grieve the loss of a fetus through a miscarriage the same as the loss of an actual child….THEN you can say that. Actions speak louder than words.

            “It’s interesting because just like you say i don’t act like it’s murder most people don’t act like it’s not a bad thing…almost everybody agrees that there should be less abortions…if there is nothing wrong with it, why do people care at all how many of them happen?”
            NOBODY is saying a fetus is NOTHING. It is a POTENTIAL child…a POTENTIAL person. I don’t like the loss of that potential….but i’m NOT willing to FORCE a woman to have a child she does not want, that she us unable to support, that is the product of incest or rape or that may end up killing her for a POTENTIAL child. Yes…i don’t like the fact that a potential child is lost. But i’m not willing to dictate what a woman must do for that potential.

            “We want to put an end to the killing of innocent people,”

            Wow..you really can’t stop the rhetoric can you. Again, when YOU start actually treating a fetus the same as a child..i will stop calling it rhetoric. You see a pregnant woman smoking. You calling the cops…or children’s services? Okay…now you see a woman giving her 2 week old a carton of Camel No Filters and telling little Billy to smoke up? You bet your ass you are calling the cops. How about if you are at dinner and you see a pregnant woman drinking a glass of wine at dinner. I guess call the cops immediately? Of course not. Now, you see a mother giving her 2 week old a glass of wine in child’s bottle? EVERYONE would call the cops or children’s services. Please don’t make the argument regarding a mother smoking is like second hand smoke. The mother is taking this shit into her bloodstream and sharing it directly with the child. It’s just as bad as the kid smoking it directly. The child end up being born addicted to nicotine. Now, you may roll your eyes…you may talk shit about her later…but you sure as shit wouldn’t call the cops on her. Care to hear how our Juvenile and Family Courts treat them differently?
            I’m sorry, that you are unwilling to admit that we do indeed treat the fetus and the baby differently in nearly EVERY other aspect of our daily lives….except this one debate. Here you are able to get on a pedestal and moralize…..when in reality…you treat them differently. At least have the intellectual honesty to admit this.

          • MrJmm999

            “”However, i’m not about to put this above the choice of the woman to do what she wants with her child.”

            So… you’re arguing against child protection laws in this sentence.”

            LOL…i wondered why you claimed i was arguing against child protection laws. It really baffled me. My sentence should have read “However, i’m not about to put this above the choice of the woman to do what she wants with her “child.”
            Notice the quotation marks I SHOULD HAVE put around the word child. I was being intentionally snarky by tying to mock you using child instead of fetus. Instead of being “snarky”…i ended up sounding like a psychopath.

          • Graffight

            Blacks Law Dictionary “Fetus: An unborn child. Unborn Offspring.

            yes…as I said it’s a child…an unborn one yes, but a child none the less…the only difference between an unborn child and a child is a 4 inch trip out of it’s mother….4 inches isn’t enough to make a significant difference in what something is.

            “At any point when typing this did you think “hey…it’s not arbitrary…it does depend on size, location, level of develpment and degree of dependency….thus…by definition…NOT arbitrary. Again, these are not the issues…but good examples of how they are NOT arbitrary. As i have pointed out…the issue is viability…(which is effected by things like size, level of development and is all basically degree of dependency”. Again…textbook example of NOT arbitrary. .”

            Vitability is another arbitrary thing you just selected out of a hat. If I kill a woman and she is pregnant, no matter where she is in the pregnancy in most states if the baby dies as well i will be charged with 2 murders. Why does vitability not matter here? I’m not sure you understand what arbitrary means, I’ll give you some examples.

            Size cannot disqualify a person from being valuable…babies are smaller than adults, women are generally smaller than men, a reduction of size does not equal a reduction in value…so how is the size of the unborn any more of a determining factor of it’s value. you have just selected an arbitrary size and said “oh now it’s big enough to be valuable”

            Level of development cannot disqualify a person from being valuable, a 6 year old girl does not have fully developed reproductive organs yet, an infant’s brain is not as developed as an adults, a prepubessent boy is not as developed as his post pubessent counterpart. So how is it that the unborn is disqualified because it is less developed. you have just picked an arbetrary stage in development and drew a line saying this is the qualifying point….why not at 4 years old?

            Location also cannot disqualify a person from being valuable. A person can be in an air plane, or in a pool, I probably travel at least 10 miles a day via walking and driving, and at no point durring my journey do i lose any value, so how does a 4 inch trip down the vaginal canal somehow bestoe value on the unborn? again you have just selected an arbitrary location and said, this is the not valuable zone.

            Degree of dependency is also cannot disqualify someone from being valuable. an infant is completely dependent on it’s mother or someone else to care for it, the elderly are more dependent on other people, you can have a medical issue and become dependent on medical equipment to keep you alive, like a dialisis machine…or even a resperator. Non of these things disqualify a person from their right to live. Arbitrarily you have said that dependency on the mother in the womb spefically is the not valuable zone and thos children are not valuable.

            “I agree..I’M not mixing terms..you are. Fetus and baby, are not the same thing. A fetus is NOT a citizen, it is NOT a child. The foremetioned are granted civil rights. You say they “should” be protected…i may or may not agree. However, i’m not about to put this above the choice of the woman to do what she wants with her child.”

            The problem with this is that you have no justifiable reason to disqualify the unborn from being a citizen. Also the right to life is not granted by anyone, this is natural right, it belongs to each person intrinsically.

            “Nope…again…not children…fetuses.”

            By the definition you gave me fetuses ARE children, just unborn ones…so address the statement, don’t just wave your hand.

            “No..your lack of skin in the game is relevant. You dictate to women what they MUST DO….while you sit back and moralize. AGAIN…you say child when you mean both Fetus AND child. Why do you do this? I would be very concerned for a mother that wanted to kill her BORN child. However, if she wanted to terminate the fetus SHE is carrying around in HER body….that is HER choice. Again. the difference is legally viable and not viable.
            Btw…the ACTUAL distinction is divided into trimesters. ”

            Sorry bro, I have a moral obligation to protect those who i believe are being harmed. I believe the unborn are people just like you and are being killed at breakneck speed. If you saw this in any other circumstance you would be appauled…but since these people don’t have faces yet you feel fine sweeping them under the carpet and turning your back. I am not mixing terms here…fetuses ARE children you must prove a difference not based on some arbitrary term. Just because a infant has a different name it’s still a child…just like a fetus is still a child.

            “Again. the difference is legally viable and not viable.”

            Laws can be wrong, and since we are the authors of the laws i will fight against unjust…black people didn’t use to be considered human beings either bro…think about that.

          • MrJmm999

            “Vitability is another arbitrary thing you just selected out of a hat. ”

            I have never had a discussion with a person who is this passionate about this issue….yet so uninformed. First, “viability” is NOT arbitrary. In fact, it’s the exact opposite of arbitrary. Arbitrary, would be saying “the line of distinction is 5 months, 23 days and 6 hours and have NO reason for doing it.” Additionally, I did not make viability the “line in the sand” that would be the United States Supreme Court.

          • Graffight

            I think I’m not being clear in how I’m using the word arbitrary here. The point of viability is not what’s arbitrary…you are arbitrarily choosing that point. You have effectively looked at a time line and said the baby is viable here, and THAT is when it is no longer OK to get an abortion. I say that is arbitrary because i don’t see why viability is a different position than 23 Days. You have no reason to pick that point, in fact many would disagree with you, so what makes your arbitrary point on the time line any better than suzie down the block’s arbitrary point on the time line?

            Also Define Viability MrJmm999, I’m not clear on what you mean by that…can you give a specific definition of viability?

          • MrJmm999

            Wow….I’m sorry but you really do appeart to not have done any research at all regarding the abortion issue. You would like Roe v. Wade overturned…yet have NO clue what it says.

            Look up viability with regards to the abortion issue. Read the actual decision. It’s NOT arbitrary. It’s the exact opposite of arbirtrary and you would know this IF you read WHY the court came to that decision. The courts have explained WHY viability is so important for development and legal reasons. However, instead of actually educating yourself about an issue you are VERY passionate about, you chose to parrot the rhetoric you have heard. Now, having no clue why or how courts have come to view viability as an important part of the development of a fetus, you see this as arbitrary. However, you are sticking your head in the sand and remaining uniformed about what the ACTUAL law is on the issue, does not give you license to claim…”it’s arbitrary”.

            Let me ask you a question. Can a state make a law that a woman cannot get an abortion unless the health of woman is in danger? Can a state limit abortions to only cases of health of woman (death), rape and incest? I’m sorry but you seem to not understand the basics of abortion law. I have already had to explain to someone else here that a state cannot say “Okay..it’s legal to get an abortion…but it’s illegal to perform an abortion”. I’m sorry but it appears that NOBODY here has done there homework on ANY issues and instead choose to parrot the rhetoric they like.

            This is a legal issue and when discussing it I think that if you are going to hold any position passionaletly, you at least owe it to yourelf to educate yourself about what the law actually says.

      • Graffight

        “Do you deny that the VAST majority of the funding, rhetoric and Pro-Life movement is religously motivated.”

        even if this is true, did you know that the VAST majority of pro life arguments are not religious in nature at all…in fact i’ve never seen a religious person debate the pro life stance and use a religious argument unless they were talking to other christians.

    • Mike Norman

      “This isn’t some religious philosophy born inside the walls of a church. It’s a philosophy of compassion born in the soul of humanity itself. But if your goal is to win at the polls and not in humanity, abortion disguised as a simple choice for women gets you some free, cheap, and easy political capitol that you don’t deserve and you freely spend like a drunken sailor.”

      It seems like if the pro-life stance really was “born in the soul of humanity itself,” that being pro-life would be the winning strategy at the polls, since it’s humans that do the voting.

      Just saying.

  • http://twitter.com/THEAtheistAnti The Atheist Antidote

    The great thinker Ernest van den Haag brilliantly made the case for execution as deterrence: Imagine if a state announced that murders committed Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays would be punishable by execution and murders committed the other days of the week would be punishable by imprisonment. Would murder rates remain the same as they are now on all the days of the week? I doubt it.

    • MrJmm99

      Brock, i’m curious. Why do you think we punish people? You mentioned deterrence. Specific or General? Do you REALLY think that executing drug dealers who kill is a deterent to drug dealers who kill? Do you not understand that these people live EVERY DAY OF THEIR LIVES cheating death?

      Again, why do you think we punish people? I have a sneeky suspiction…that if you really think about it..your answer will be “revenge”. (Just a guess..I may be wrong).

      • Graffight

        In my opinion punishment is there as a deturrent from doing what is illegal. In the case of murder, I would say it is a good idea to remove those who kill others from society so they are less likely to kill any more members of society. This does not necessaraly mean the death penalty though.

        • Salitica

          Are you saying you are fully pro-life, live and let live, regardless the crimes, because in reality living (like a zoo exhibit) is more of a punishment than ending the punishment with what the law defines as ultimate punishment?

          • Graffight

            no, I mont against the death penalty, but I dont’ think all murders warrent the death penalty. At some point a person like the unibomber does not deserve to be fed by the taxpayer’s money anymore and should be killed.

            “because in reality living (like a zoo exhibit) is more of a punishment than ending the punishment with what the law defines as ultimate punishment?”

            Though in some sense i agree with this i think another goal of prison is to remove those from society who have proven that they will always damage it. Sometimes punishment is not important, and simply ending a person’s life is the best option.

        • MrJmm999

          No argument here on these points. Let me ask you…IS the death penelty for murder truly a deterent to society at large (General Deterent). I think statistics have shown that there is NO significant effect on murder rates after states have instituted or prohibited the death penelty.

          If this is the case…and we can deter the individual criminal by locking him up for life (specific deterent)……what is the justification for the death penelty? I have had this discussion time and time again with many people. They well change their mind about WHY they endorse the death penelty, (specific deterent, general deterent etc….)…at the end of the day…..it comes back to good ole christian vengence.

          • Graffight

            No, I could care less about vengeance, I’m more interested in removing dangerous people from society. I believe that at some point it is no longer the taxpayer’s responsibility to keep this person alive, so they should be removed from society completely i.e. death.

            I do think that the death penalty is somewhat of a deterrent, but as you said, statistics do not agree with this. I do however believe that those who are not deterred by the threat of death will not be deterred by anything and if they make a habit out of killing people, the public should not be forced to care for them.

          • MrJmm999

            ” I’m more interested in removing dangerous people from society. I believe that at some point it is no longer the taxpayer’s responsibility to keep this person alive, so they should be removed from society completely i.e. death”

            It is more expensive to put someone to death than it is to keep then in prison for life. (Assuming the defendant uses public defense attorney). VERY few people have the resourses to pay for litigating a death penalty case and the ensuing appeals (appeals on Death Penalty Cases are automatic). The state is having to pay for the defense as well as the prosecution. They are also having to pay for both sides of the appeal. In short..it does NOT save money to put them to death.
            I have recently had an epiphany regarding criminals, mentally unstable, etc. Okay..here is this world shattering epiphany. They don’t think like we do. Yes..i know that sounds obvious…but WAY too many times we think “what would I do if X” Yes…the death penelty would deter people like you and me It’s just intuition and it sounds right to us on the surface. But we aren’t the people who are needing to be deterred. The people that need deterred are drug dealers who kill, people with EXTREME anger control issues etc. The drug dealer lives EVERY day of his life facing death. You think threatening him with death is ANY deterrent at all? No…his/her very way of life is a literal death sentence that he/she escapes from day by day. These people just don’t think like us.
            Additionally, we have found that to effective for ANY reason, deterrent, vengence etc…the punishment must be 3 things. Swift, certain and Severe. Well, the death penelty is indeed severe. However, because we have due process rights..the severity is lessened by the fact that it is NOT swift. Additionally, it’s not certain by any streatch of the imagination. You have any idea how many murders (or crimes for that matter) go unsolved?

            Okay…so we have elimninated cost as a factor for the death penelty and we have eliminated deterrance. I’m guessing you will also agree that the goal of the death penelty is NOT to rehabilitate the person. Honestly, we are running out of justifications other than vengence.
            I’m about as liberal as they come and I waffle back and forth about the death penelty. Yes..it is applied unevcenly between men and women and also between races. However, I must admit that there is the rare case where I simply want revenge. For these rare crimes…i feel that the crime is so heinous that they have broken their side of the Social Contract to such an extent…that society is justified in seeking revenge. However, lets be honest, this is about society taking revenge.

          • Graffight

            Yeah the death penalty is tough for me too. considering what you have written here, I think that it really does boil down to pure revenge or punishment. Sometimes I think that it is justified.

      • theowarner

        It’s worth saying that even if the death penalty is an effect deterrence, more effective deterrents might be possible. And, then, would the death penalty be justified?

    • theowarner

      That’s interesting.

      We could actually run that experiment today. Let’s take two states that have and don’t have the death penalty and see which as better crime rates.

      http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates

      • Salitica

        good point and good find.

    • thegillotine09

      Actually, while that argument may make intuitive sense, you must keep in mind that murderers are not thinking in terms of their long term self-interest. When driven by the extremely powerful emotions that cause somebody to commit heinous acts of murder, consequences for their actions are seldom taken into account. Those who do consider the consequences of their actions are also more concerned with avoiding conviction rather than a harsh sentence.

      The fact remains that there is no statistically significant evidence of a deterrent factor in capital punishment. There are other arguments you can use, but the deterrent argument is completely unsubstantiated.

    • David John Wellman

      In addition to Theo’s reply, I’d say that if you’re going to argue for the death penalty because of its deterrence effect, if any, then you would be forced to also argue for lifelong torture for convicted murderers, if that were found to be a better deterrent than death.

  • http://twitter.com/THEAtheistAnti The Atheist Antidote

    Opponents of capital punishment speculate about the names of innocents who “would” have been executed had their convictions stood. But they never mention the name men and women who really were — not might have been — murdered by convicted murderers.

    In 1974, Clarence Ray Allen ordered a 17-year-old young woman, Mary Sue Kitts, murdered because she knew of Allen’s involvement in a Fresno, California, store burglary.

    After his 1977 trial and conviction, Allen was sentenced to life without parole.

    According to San Francisco Chronicle columnist Debra Saunders, “In Folsom State Prison, Allen cooked up a scheme to kill the witnesses who testified against him so that he could appeal his conviction and then be freed because any witnesses were dead — or scared into silence.” As a result, three more innocent people were murdered — Bryon Schletewitz, 27, Josephine Rocha, 17, and Douglas White, 18.

    This time, a jury sentenced Allen to death, the only death sentence ever handed down by a Glenn County (California) jury. That was in 1982.

    For 23 years, opponents of the death penalty have played with the legal system — not to mention played with the lives of the murdered individuals’ loved ones — to keep Allen alive.

    • MrJmm999

      Really Brock? Are you unable to see the difference between the STATE killing someone and a citizen killing someone? Really? I honestly feel like every time you write an essay or response we have to go back to the basics and explain to you the difference between such things and government action and non government action. We have to ask you basic questions like “Do you think it is the government’s (Fed/state or local) duty to educate ALL children”. (You ignored this of course).

      Did you REALLY think someone here would not pick up on your false dichontomy. What you described was an absolute appeal to emotion and showed your fundamental inability to grasp the difference between individual action and state action. Do you REALLY not understand the difference?

    • theowarner

      In 1983, Thomas Allen Murphy was convicted of stealing a car. In jail, he cooked up a scheme to kill the witnesses who testified against him so that he could appeal his conviction and then be freed. As a result, twelve innocent people were murdered.

      Grand theft auto should be a capital crime.

    • David John Wellman

      23 years since 1982 would mean that your post, Brock, was written in 2005.

      If I cut and pasted something that was written in 2005, others would accuse me of being a mere “repeater station” for a certain type of propaganda, not really thinking about whether the arguments were valid, only caring that they appeared to support my position. And they would be right to do so.

    • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

      The question I have is, do you think the legal system is flawless? How many people were convicted of rape, later to be exonerated by DNA evidence? If that happens, how many innocent people have been put to death?

      Is a single innocent life worth all the guilty lives? Do you think “beyond a reasonable doubt” is a good enough standard to claim a person absolutely guilty without chance of innocence?

      The government shouldn’t be in the business of killing innocent people, just because it is killing some number of guilty people, unless there is no choice.

  • MrJmm999

    Brock, where in the constitution do you get the right to wear an ugly tie? Or drink coffee? Where can you find the right to get married or raise your children? Can Congress pass a law tomorrow outlawing all marriages to provide for the General Welfare if it is determined that marriage is indeed bad for society? The right of privacy is long established as a penumbral right. For someone who claims to love our constitution and individual liberties, you sure are uneducated about constitutional issues and could REALLY give a damn about inidividual liberties……except your right to a gun..you seem to like that particular one.

  • http://twitter.com/THEAtheistAnti The Atheist Antidote

    There are many good reasons to be wary of taking the lives of murderers — such as insufficient evidence, corrupted witnesses, distinguishing between premeditated murder and a crime of passion — but love of life or a commitment to the innocent is not among them.
    Allowing one who has unjustly deprived another person of life to keep his own is the ultimate injustice.

    I comes down to defending the victim or the perpetuator of the crime. The broken leftist compass is again on display here.

    • MrJmm999

      Wow….just…Wow. You honestly have no clue about anything you are talking about at all. You freely admit that great care must be taken to ensure the defendant gets a fair trial when you say “There are many good reasons to be wary of taking the lives of murderers — such as insufficient evidence, corrupted witnesses”

      However, you follow this up with “but ……commitment to the innocent is not among them” Why do you think these steps must be taken to ensure innocent are not unjustly convicted? Again, you claim to LOVE the constitution, but don’t like the due process parts of it….or the establishment clause, or the searches and seizures part….but again..i’m pretty sure you like the gun part.

    • theowarner

      How do we protect a dead person from their murderer? By killing the murder?

      Is that the “broken rightist compass”?

    • Grafight

      so who should die when it comes to abortion? The mother? The Doctor? I can’t agree with you here, all murder should not be punished by death.

      • Salitica

        it seems the vast majority of Pro-lifer’s believe the doctor should die, as they have killed quite a number of them is the past.

        • Graffight

          I’m just wondering how this squares with Brock’s view on the death penalty. I’m not a fan of those who kill abortion doctors, I don’t think that’s right.

        • Graffight

          it seems the vast majority of Pro-lifer’s believe the doctor should die –

          I kina glossed over this statement, but i think it’s false. It would be difficult for you to prove that the “vast majority” of pro lifers believe anything accept that abortion should be illegal.

          • Salitica

            “vast majority” is over reaching, maybe 20% AT the most support killing abortion doctors, so I have a mild problem with hyperbolic statement qualifiers.

            They don’t believe it should be illegal, they believe it is murder, which is illegal. There is a fine distinction there.

    • Haysoos

      “Allowing one who has unjustly deprived another person of life to keep his own is the ultimate injustice.”

      Says who? Plus, who is “allowing” anyone to live. No one, person or government, has dominion over another person’s life such that it can be said that one entity is “allowing a person to live.”

    • David John Wellman

      Consider a criminal who kidnaps a man, surgically removes one of his kidneys, and sells it on the black market. The criminal is subsequently apprehended.

      Would we say that it is unjust to allow the criminal, who deprived another of one of his kidneys, to keep both of his own?

      If so, do you think it be right for society to remove one of the criminal’s kidneys as punishment?

  • Salitica

    I personally am staying away from abortion.

    However Euthanasia is another story, why don’t I Have the right to die when I am ready? It is patently weird that American politics thinks and American morality has anything to say about this.

    This being said I am completely against execution. Our concept of execution comes exclusively from the religions which is strongest in our country. Executed murders are expected to go to hell, which can be a permanent punishment for the crime. But there is no hell, so what is the point? How is this really punishing them? I see it as letting the go early and think murderer should be confined in complete isolation for the rest of their lives, how is this not punishment?

    • Salitica

      ” It is patently weird that American politics thinks and American morality has anything to say about this.”
      edited
      It is patently weird that American politicos and and American morality has anything to say about this.

      There are most likely more, I am having a bad Englich day.

  • Salitica

    Brock,

    “How dare someone tell a woman what she can and can’t do with her own body, right? This is the classic and most persuasive argument for Roe .v Wade, but is it a sound argument? A woman has a right to do with her body as she sees fit. So yes it is a sound argument
    Can a woman choose to use her body to steal without legal consequence? The body does not steal, the mind does. We individually own only one thing in our lives, and that is our body
    Can she legally use her body to do drugs? Yes she can, because it is not illegal anywhere to do drugs, it is illegal to be in possession of drugs
    Can she even legally use her body to prostitute for money? Yes She can, Prostitution is only a morality law, and has nothing to do with real legality.

    all these statements display your lack of understanding of human rights

    “According to the now disgraced planed parenthood, only three percent of all abortion cases have anything to do with a women’s heath. ”

    Um which type of abortion are you referring to? And I don’t know if you are aware of this or not, but Planned Parenthood’s very name tells you what they are going to be doing medically, THEIR stats are 3% medical reasons. But all private and public hospitals in the country, at the request of a woman’s OBGYN will terminate a pregnancy which shows a potential for health problems for the woman. 93% of emergency abortions occur in a hospital, not Planned Parenthood’s clinics.

    “We all know the truth is that they’re the result of millions of people escaping the consequences of careless and reckless sexual behavior.” 93% of these abortions are performed at the request of a fundamentalist christian, who until five minutes prior to getting knocked up opposed abortion as well.

    Gestational Age Percentage Yearly Total
    Less than 9 weeks 57.9% 752,700
    9-10 weeks 20.3% 263,900
    11-12 weeks 10.2% 132,600
    13-15 weeks 6.2% 80,600
    16-20 weeks 4.3% 55,900
    21+ weeks 1.5% 19,500

    this is the numbers of USA abortions yearly PER ESTIMATES from a pro life site http://prolifeaction.org/faq/abortion.php#yearly. A large percentage of these abortions are for medical reasons, how many elective abortions have there been? How many of these were as a result of Medically viable reasons? How many were from young women who really are not ready for children it is still their choice. Oh and 1.3 million is not “millions”

    With all that being said, Brock, How many spontaneous abortions occur per year?

    Theo

    “(1) diseases can be detected and then prevented by abortion (2) legalized abortion makes abortion safe; illegalized abortion makes abortion unsafe and results in the deaths of thousands of women each year”

    These two points are agreeable

    “(3) unwanted pregnancies increase crime because
    (a) poor woman are more likely to have unwanted pregnancies and are less able to care for a child and (b) unwanted babies are more likely to become criminals and .”

    This is totally fucked up. less than .01% of all women ever charged with a crime have been pregnant at the time. Anywhere in the world a pregnant woman can get anything she needs and in most cases what she wants, from churches, individuals, even the government. The are significantly more tools in place to help a women successfully carry a child to term then there are in place to terminate that pregnancy. Additionally, the children of these Criminally pregnant women are LESS likely socially to become criminals.

    “(4) abortion allows women to accomplish a biological equality with men”
    not sure about this as i am specifically biologically different than 99.999999999999% of women and men

    “Today, the death penalty is a racist and biased policy and, for that reason alone, should be placed on a moratorium until its inequalities can be addressed by legislatures. ”

    The death penalty today is not racist, it just appears that way to you.

    • Christ724

      I honestly think Brock is just too lazy to actually research something. He probably types up something, “abortion stats” on google and gets the first thing he sees affirming his worldview without putting much thought into it.

      • Salitica

        true, but it is also true abortion (elective) is incredibly common in the states and it is true that the increased sexual activity among the unprepared contributes to this

    • Graffight

      “The body does not steal, the mind does. We individually own only one thing in our lives, and that is our body”

      what? So if I tie you up how long would it take for you to steal my wallet with your mind alone? This argument is obsurd…I think you may be going for the guns don’t kill people approach, but unlike guns minds and bodies are connected by nature, and if you are a not a duelst they are the same thing.

      “Yes She can, Prostitution is only a morality law, and has nothing to do with real legality.”

      you may feel that way, but in reality she will be arrested. It is illegal…(whether or not it should be is another question)

      “Um which type of abortion are you referring to?”

      If you are talking about the difference between medical abortions and those for conveniance medical abortions are the minority of all abortions. The VAST majority of abortions are for reasons that have nothing to do with health.

      “93% of these abortions are performed at the request of a fundamentalist christian, who until five minutes prior to getting knocked up opposed abortion as well.”

      a red herring…has nothing to do with the issue. The stance of the anti aboritonist has nothing to do with who get’s abortions, it has to do with if someone should be able to get one in the first place.

      • Salitica

        My mind stealing argument is similar to “a man lusting after a woman has already committed adultery in his heart”
        You cannot talk your way out of the mind is the source of stealing, because it takes an intelligent decision to steal.

        Prostitution in not illegal everywhere and only specifically illegal in western christian cultures. There are medical reason to regulate prostitute, but in essence it is the exchange of money that is the crime and not the act itself.

        Thanks for pointing out my red-herring for what is was, however i was aware, as I wrote it, that is was deviant to the topic at hand. I just wanted to get a rise outta ya.

        • Graffight

          Unless you are a christian you cannot use a biblical text as support for your position. But even if you were thinking about stealing is not illegal, until the body becomes involved there is no crime. Unless you would enjoy world where thought police are a reality.

          “Prostitution in not illegal everywhere and only specifically illegal in western christian cultures.”

          well…most of us here live in a place where it is illegal…which makes it something you cannot do with your body….but here are some others

          You cannot choose to murder
          you cannot use your voice to yell fire into a croud
          you cannot use your body to drive a car through a red light

          most laws tell us what we cannot do with our body. the point is that we have freedom to do with our body whatever we want AS LONG as it does not infringe on the rights of others. Abortion infringes on someone elses right to life, therefore it should not be allowed.

          • Salitica

            Only Christians can use the Bible? WTF?
            IT has taken me five minutes to stop laughing,. Effectively that verse IS supportive of “thinking about stealing is a kin to stealing” sames as, “if you have anger in you heart for a man, you have already committed murder” or something like that. The point being, even Zen Taoists can use the bible as a supportive reference because there are relevant moralities contained in the bible.

            You can choose to murder, yell fire, drive through a red light. If you do this, you have committed a crime, your mind is the one that is punished, not your body in all of these cases.

            The fact is there are no laws in any state prohibiting me or anybody else from doing with their body as they see fit. It is the act that takes thought and the decision to act that is the crime, and no these are not thought crimes, our bodies have nothing to do with it.

      • MrJmm999

        “The body does not steal, the mind does. We individually own only one thing in our lives, and that is our body”

        what? So if I tie you up how long would it take for you to steal my wallet with your mind alone? This argument is obsurd…”

        No…it makes perfect sense if you understand the law. Most crimes involve a component called mens rea. It is the mental aspect that is required to commit a crime, (ie. knowingly) Now, without getting too much into detail about the issue which can be mind boggling at times when we have to infer someones mental state by their actions…let me give you an example. We are at a party and we both wear the same coat to the party. When i leave I pick up your jacket by mistake and take it home. Did i “steal” your jacket? (I’m assuming you can prove all this shit in court btw..you can’t just say..”it was a missunderstanding every time you get charged with a crime). The mens rea portion of the crime of theft is not met and you are not guilty. Nearly every criminal statute has a mens rea component to it. (knowingly, wrecklessly, negligently). As the mental part of the crime is reduced (from knowingly to wreclessly)..the crime is generally considered “less” severe.

        So, the act of taking someones stuff in and of itself is not the crime..you have to also intend to steal. There are a few exceptions to the mens rea requirement and these are called strict liability crimes. For example, illegal parking. It doesn’t matter that you didn’t intend to park illegally….it doesn’t matter if you even saw the sign that said it was illegal. All that matters is that you parked illegally.

        • Graffight

          I understand what you are saying, and i’m not trying to deny that there is a mental aspect to laws…what i’m saying is that without a body, minds can commit no crimes. Simply thinking about stealing something is not a crime. Thinking about killing someone isn’t a crime, until your mind puts your body into action there is no crime…and it is quite illegal for your mind to cause your body to take certain actions. So yes intent is important, but without the body there can be no crime.

          • MrJmm999

            Actually, there are crimes where the act is not required. Conspiracy comes to mind off the top of my head. There are a few others others that don’t really require an “act” to commit the crime but that was a long time ago.
            The key is that we “commit” all sorts of acts every day that are perfectly legal. “I pick up a coat, get in a car, walk out of a store with items, have sex etc.” When Salitica said, “the body does not steal…the mind does” he pointing out that what turns these average, every day actions into crimes is your mental “state”. (If you did it intentionally, knowingly, wrecklessly, negligently). Every day actions become crimes because of what is in your mind.

          • Graffight

            conspiracy IS an act in and of itself. It’s the act of conspiring with other people to commit a crime…if you just think about conspiring with others you have committed no crime.

            Mental state is not the only thing that turns an act into a crime…you said it before simply the act of parking in a wrong spot is illegal no matter what your mental state…killing a person by accident is also illegal and you can be punished for it. If you have an item in your hand and you forget it’s there and you walk out of the store you CAN be prosecuted for it, whether you meant to do it or not. (most stores won’t prosecuted, but it can happen). If you have sex with a minor who you thought was over 18 you CAN be prosecuted…

            There are a few though crimes that are out there, like hate crimes for instance…but even then you have to commit the crime with your body, simply thinking about something will not be enough to make something illegal, ever. Nobody gets arrested for their thoughts alone…and I hope they never do.

  • Mike Norman

    I feel bad about taking down Brock’s straw man of his own pro-life stance, but here it goes.

    “Life begins at conception. It has never been proven otherwise. If the fetus is human life, that trumps any argument you can make about the individual freedom of the mother.”

    If this is so, by this line of reasoning, and if bacterial life begins at cell division, then that trumps any argument you can make about the usefulness of antibiotics and disinfectants. This is silly because what we’re after isn’t a definition of life, but a definition of personhood. Even if Brock could establish personhood at conception, His work isn’t done. He still has to sort out how the rights of the various parties weigh against each other.

    Like it or not, Brock still has to address the points raised in Judith Jarvis Thompson’s “A Defense of Abortion,” required reading for my freshman philosophy class. He can’t just *declare* her defeated.

    Again, Brock can’t just say things. He has to argue and convince. And probably also educate himself about the issue at hand.

    • Graffight

      You have missed the argument completely…Brock said the fetus is “HUMAN” life. Meaning left to natural devises a human fetus will never grow into anything else besides a human. The bacteria argument falls flat, because no matter how long you let bacteria grow it will NEVER turn into a human.

      Since it is a fact that a fetus is human seperate from the mother, you must now show us what would disqualify it from the same right to life as any other human.

      The abortion topic hinges on one question and one question alone: Is the unborn a human life? If it is, there is no justificaton for abortion at any stage outside of danger to the mother’s life. (meaning the child will cause the mother to die.)

      • Mike Norman

        I have not missed the point. You have. The point is that not all human life has personhood. Human life and personhood are coincident for a large number of cases, but personhood is more complex than “it may some day turn into a human.”

        What processes are we going to allow to occur during this progression? All any viable human sperm and human egg need to to in order to “become human” are to find each other and combine. Is this combination process included? If so, every sperm really is sacred. Also, what if we know that an asteroid is going to wipe out all life on earth before the term of the pregnancy? Since that fetus will never “become human,” is abortion on the table again?

        In short, you’re equivocating on the word “human.” The two possible meanings are “genetically a human being” and “a moral agent with personhood, who’s agency and status have resulted from its human genetic material and developmental history.”

        “The abortion topic hinges on one question and one question alone: Is the unborn a human life? If it is, there is no justificaton for abortion at any stage outside of danger to the mother’s life. (meaning the child will cause the mother to die.)”

        You have also not read Thompson’s essay, I see.

        • Salitica
        • Graffight

          You are conflaiting terms there is NO difference between human and moral agent with personhood…you say “The point is that not all human life has personhood.” so show me an instance (besides the unborn) where it is not.

          You go on to try to try to show the obserdity of my argument by equivocating sperm with a fertalized egg, i don’t care about sperm and i don’t care about eggs if placed in a dish and allowed to grow neither woult turn into a human without the other…period, it won’t happen. The only thing that matters is the moment of conception, not the process that get’s us to conception.

          “Also, what if we know that an asteroid is going to wipe out all life on earth before the term of the pregnancy? Since that fetus will never “become human,” is abortion on the table again?”

          This is silly, i was very carful to say “left to natural devises a human fetus will never grow into anything else besides a human.” an asteroid killing everyone is not a natural phenominon of the child birth process

          “In short, you’re equivocating on the word “human.” The two possible meanings are “genetically a human being” and “a moral agent with personhood, who’s agency and status have resulted from its human genetic material and developmental history.”

          correct…i believe they are the same thing, you would have to show me that they are not.

          “You have also not read Thompson’s essay, I see.”

          I have…but i’m sure you have not read Francis J. Beckwith’s respeonse

          http://homepage.mac.com/francis.beckwith/Thomson.pdf

          • Mike Norman

            Actually, conflating is equivocating in the sense relevant here. What you mean to do is accuse me of making a distinction without a difference, or of creating a distinction where none exists, the opposite of conflating.

            “correct…i believe ['genetic human' and 'moral agent'] are the same thing, you would have to show me that they are not.”

            Let’s consider how we might actually be separating the concept of “person” from that of “human” in different contexts.

            Human infants and chimpanzee infants follow intellectual and emotional developmental tracks identical, in regard to the salient aspects of sentience, until some time before the first year. Then there’s a divergence where the human infant goes on to develop speech, planning, and other distinctly human traits. Prior to this, evaluating the morality of harming either of them could be done in one of two ways. On the one hand, you could evaluate the morality of harm based on the “humanness” of the human infant based on its DNA and further potential and the “chimpanzeeness” of the chimp infant and its potential. That is, you could potentially disregard the similar aspects of their mentality and cognition and focus on their respective species. On the other hand, you could evaluate the morality of the harm based on the current state of the development of the psyche of the human infant and chimp infant, and disregard their species.

            I’m going to guess that you think that harming a human infant is a more egregious than harming a chimpanzee infant. I sort of do, too. But the problem I have with that feeling is that I recognize that “person” is comparably as important as”human” in this case. For example, if I could manufacture an artificial intelligence that had the self-awareness of a two-year-old, I’d have, I think, the same responsibilities to it that I would have toward a human two-year-old.

            Or, let’s say we clone a human zygote and artificially suppress, in the clone, the portions of the genome that control higher brain development, in order to create a brainless spare parts reserve. The genes are still there and, at the beginning of the experiment, “left to natural devises [sic] [it] will never grow into anything else besides a human.” But, we’ve intervened to create something that has no interests, no plans, no concept of self, no mental anything. What if we, instead, create a organ repository by cloning every organ independently, except the brain, and assemble them into a body, placed on life support for the same purpose? Is, for example, owning the incubated repository tantamount to slavery while owning the stitched-together repository morally acceptable? Is a potential natural path of development into a human *the* sufficient factor that determines the morality of how we treat these two entities?

            More crudely, what if we develop the technology to keep a body alive, even after an accident destroys the entire brain? Suppose it’s a syringe or easily administered small device we could all carry that, if used immediately after a horrific braining, would allow respiration, digestion, salivation, filtration, defecation, and so on to continue indefinitely. Would you feel morally obligated to use it in when someone’s entire brain had been, for example, severed from the rest of the body and minced? What if, for the sake of argument, one side effect of the process was that, in some cases, the breathing corpse screamed loudly and incessantly in a disturbing way? Would you condemn one who disconnects the device to spare us the discomfort of the meaningless cries? I’ll bet, in considering your answers, that you are separating some aspects of “humanness” from some aspects of “personhood.”

            And, recently, a small number of philosophers and scientists have begun to make the case that some primates and cetaceans have a limited form of sentience sophisticated enough to qualify them for considerations as persons, morally and under the law. For the sake of argument, let’s say they have conceptions of self and future equivalent to that of a three-year-old. They are not then “human” are they? Are pro-lifers really so bound to the conflation of “biological human” and “moral person” that they can’t even reason about non-human intelligences? I mean, certainly they acknowledge other non-human intelligences, like angels, demons, and gods, including their own?

            Which is all just by way of saying that sane people, loosely speaking, can and do consider the concepts of “humanity” and “personhood” separately. So, it is interesting that you think that it has to be shown at all, and more interesting that you think the burden should fall on me, because there are indeed two separate words for these two related but separate concepts. You yourself participated in sanity when, referring to my statement that humanity is not always equivalent to personhood, you said, “so show me an instance (besides the unborn) where it is not.” Besides the unborn!? Does this not, in fact, cede the entire point?! Haven’t *you* already shown that a distinction can be made?! Your entire point is, “Personhood of the zygote does not matter! Only its humanness matters!,” but then you go on to say that there’s no distinction between humanness and personhood!

            I’ve erred on the side of exhaustiveness here, I admit. In doing so, I hoped to show, conclusively, that the burden of proof is actually on the person who wants to show that the two different words “person” and “human” have identical meanings or that one subsumes the other, that it is in fact absurd to think that the burden was on me. I think it’s important to do so, because we often don’t realize how thoroughly that our own bias blinds us to even basic mistakes when those mistakes shore up our cherished beliefs. Conflating “human” and “person” is a really amateurish mistake and easily shown to be so on purely conceptual grounds. It’s one I don’t think you would have let yourself get away with, except that the consequence of that mistake makes it dramatically easier to hold on to your cherished beliefs about abortion. I’ve done the same myself.

            Finally, “I have…but i’m sure you have not read Francis J. Beckwith’s respeonse .”

            Unfortunately, now I have. Those wanting to take away a woman’s right to abortion still have to address Thompson, rather than just presume that proving that life begins at conception somehow settles the matter.

          • Graffight

            thank you for your well though out response.

            “Human infants and chimpanzee infants follow intellectual and emotional developmental tracks identical, in regard to the salient aspects of sentience, until some time before the first year…(snip)”

            Ok, even if we grant that a chimpanzee can be a person, but all you have gained here is applying personhood to another thing, so we are left with “all person’s are not necesarraly human, but all humans are persons” kind of like all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares.

            “Prior to this, evaluating the morality of harming either of them could be done in one of two ways. On the one hand, you could evaluate the morality of harm based on the “humanness” of the human infant based on its DNA and further potential and the “chimpanzeeness” of the chimp infant and its potential.”

            When we evaluate the morality of killing something it is ALWAYS based on it’s humaness or value to humanity. Babies are more valuable than chimpanzees because of what they will become. They are already people, chimps are chimps, any moral obligation we feel towards the chimp is because of it’s humanness. It’s more like us than say a termite is…that’s why we gas for termites and not chimps. We can see this tendency that humans have to connect with things like us even in robots, the more humanoid the robot is, the more emotional connection we feel towards it.

            “Or, let’s say we clone a human zygote and artificially suppress, in the clone, the portions of the genome that control higher brain development, in order to create a brainless spare parts reserve. The genes are still there and, at the beginning of the experiment, “left to natural devises [sic] [it] will never grow into anything else besides a human.” But, we’ve intervened to create something that has no interests, no plans, no concept of self, no mental anything.”

            Could you rightfully say that this thing is human? doesn’t part of our humanity include our interests, plans, concept of self and mental activity…or at least the potential to have those things….this thing that you created doens’t even have potential. It is spare parts more or less.

            “I’ll bet, in considering your answers, that you are separating some aspects of “humanness” from some aspects of “personhood.”

            not so much, i’m more or less seperating human beings from human body parts. connected or disconnected there is a difference between a human being and human parts. you said yourself that this entity has no potential for anything.

            “And, recently, a small number of philosophers and scientists have begun to make the case that some primates and cetaceans…(snip) ”

            Again, you have not removed anything from humanity, but instead given something to primates. I’m fine with that (kind of) but it doesn’t hurt my case.

            “Which is all just by way of saying that sane people, loosely speaking, can and do consider the concepts of “humanity” and “personhood” separately.”

            not sure what this has to do with sanity, but….

            “You yourself participated in sanity when, referring to my statement that humanity is not always equivalent to personhood, you said, “so show me an instance (besides the unborn) where it is not.” Besides the unborn!?”

            You misunderstood what i was trying to say here…when i said “besides the unborn” i was not conseding that the umborn was not a person…rather i was disqualifying that as example you could use becaue it is the thing we are debating…obviously you think the unborn is not a person…i want to know another instance….you still have not given me an instance in which a human is not a person. You tried, but you created something that is not even human. so I ask again…when is a human not a person?

            “Your entire point is, “Personhood of the zygote does not matter! Only its humanness matters!,” but then you go on to say that there’s no distinction between humanness and personhood!”

            Right…they are the same thing…all humans are persons.

            “I’ve erred on the side of exhaustiveness here, I admit. In doing so, I hoped to show, conclusively, that the burden of proof is actually on the person who wants to show that the two different words “person” and “human” have identical meanings or that one subsumes the other, that it is in fact absurd to think that the burden was on me. I think it’s important to do so, because we often don’t realize how thoroughly that our own bias blinds us to even basic mistakes when those mistakes shore up our cherished beliefs. Conflating “human” and “person” is a really amateurish mistake and easily shown to be so on purely conceptual grounds. It’s one I don’t think you would have let yourself get away with, except that the consequence of that mistake makes it dramatically easier to hold on to your cherished beliefs about abortion. I’ve done the same myself.”

            You have not done what you assume to have done here…in fact the mere fact that you even mention Thompsons essay tells me that you should understand that the unborn is just as much of a person as anyone else, and any attempts to disqualify it from humanity is arbitrary:

            http://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm
            In Thompson’s first paragraph she writes:

            “I am inclined to agree, however, that the prospects for “drawing a line” in the development of the fetus look dim. I am inclined to think also that we shall probably have to agree that the fetus has already become a **human person** well before birth. Indeed, it comes as a surprise when one first learns how early in its life it begins to acquire human characteristics. By the tenth week, for example, it already has a face, arms and less, fingers and toes; it has internal organs, and brain activity is detectable. On the other hand, I think that the premise is false, that the fetus is not a person from the moment of conception. A newly fertilized ovum, a newly implanted clump of cells, is no more a person than an acorn is an oak tree.”

            I disagree with that last two scentences, but it seems that she realizes the power of the pro life argument…that’s why she came up with the unplugging the violinist argument. To circumvent the inevitable conclusion that the unborn IS a human person.

            “Those wanting to take away a woman’s right to abortion still have to address Thompson, rather than just presume that proving that life begins at conception somehow settles the matter.”

            If this is all you got out of Beckwith’s essay, then you didn’t read it…he directly addressed the unplugging the violinist argument.

            Beckwith says:
            “I believe that there at least six problems with Thomson’s argument. These can be put into two categories: ethical and ideological.”

            He procedes with the following argumetns
            1) Thomson assumes volunteerism.
            2) Thomson’s argument is fatal to family morality.
            3) A case can be made that the unborn does have a prima facie right to her mother’s body.
            4) Thomson ignores the fact that abortion is indeed killing and not merely the withholding of treatment.
            5) Inconsistent use of the burden of pregnancy.
            6) The libertarian principles underlying Thomson’s case are inconsistent with the state-mandated agenda of radical feminism.

            Only one of these arguments has to do with the unborn being alive, and none of the arguments “just presume that proving that life begins at conception somehow settles the matter.”

            Please read it again…or say that you aren’t interested….but don’t wave your hand and assume you know the arguments before you read them.

          • Mike Norman

            “Or, let’s say we clone a human zygote and artificially suppress, in the clone, the portions of the genome that control higher brain development, in order to create a brainless spare parts reserve. The genes are still there and, at the beginning of the experiment, “left to natural devises [sic] [it] will never grow into anything else besides a human.” But, we’ve intervened to create something that has no interests, no plans, no concept of self, no mental anything.”

            Could you rightfully say that this thing is human? doesn’t part of our humanity include our interests, plans, concept of self and mental activity…or at least the potential to have those things….this thing that you created doens’t even have potential. It is spare parts more or less.

            “I’ll bet, in considering your answers, that you are separating some aspects of “humanness” from some aspects of “personhood.”

            not so much, i’m more or less seperating human beings from human body parts. connected or disconnected there is a difference between a human being and human parts. you said yourself that this entity has no potential for anything.

            This is the whole game right here. You just conceded that I can take a viable zygote and do something to it that prevents it from becoming human, with moral impunity. Another way to put it is that we’ve turned a viable zygote into a growing brainless corpse. Imagine that I said to you, “Graffight, I’m going to do one of two things to you; I’m either going to kill you or kill your brain and keep your body alive.” From a purely self-interested perspective, purely from the perspective of harm to you, I doubt that you could voice a sincere preference. They are both death.

            Furthermore, your disqualification of the resulting organ farm is a slight-of-hand that perhaps you even missed. That “part of our humanity” that you described is precisely personhood! I think that you don’t understand personhood, frankly. Personhood is the possession of those attributes that make us actors in the moral realm. I mean, are you arguing that a zygote has plans? A concept of self? Mental activity? Before it has a brain or even a nerve center? You want it to hinge on “potential?” OK, presume that the organ repository’s brain will spontaneously grow if we were to stop suppressing it. Maybe we’ve left the genes there, merely suppressing their expression, and we’ve found that the body is really good at growing brains. Does that really change the matter? Does the brainless lump now have the moral-philosophically-defined thing called personhood?

            This is the thing: Personhood is a real thing, with a real definition. You understand that definition. It’s something like, “the combination of consciousness, interests, self-awareness, and plans, that makes us able to understand our own suffering and the suffering of others, which, in turn makes us morally responsible agents and makes others morally responsible to us,” and can mostly reason with it. However, you have a definition for “human” that just tacks on the clause, “and has personhood,” even when the prerequisites for personhood aren’t present or are only potentially present. The trouble is, you can’t just do that. There is no contingent property that you can arbitrarily tack on to anything while retaining the contingent meaning.

            It’s as if, for example, after you’ve said that one characteristic of swans is that they are white, you’ve been shown a black swan and you reply, “That is a white swan, or at least potentially white by virtue of it’s swan-ness, so it is therefore still white.” The whiteness of that black swan is not whiteness in the sense that any of us would recognize. Neither does the thing you call personhood, which you ascribe to a human being before it has a mind and will, bear any relationship to the real concept of personhood that you need in order to establish the right to life of a developing human at the moment after conception.

          • Graffight

            Actually I have conceded nothing, because there is a stark difference between what you proposed and the zygote…you actually said it…it’s potential. When you made the change in your scenario you just changed everything…

            “OK, presume that the organ repository’s brain will spontaneously grow if we were to stop suppressing it. Maybe we’ve left the genes there, merely suppressing their expression, and we’ve found that the body is really good at growing brains. Does that really change the matter? Does the brainless lump now have the moral-philosophically-defined thing called personhood.”

            yes, now that person is human, now that person deserves it’s right to life, it now becomes immoral for you to suppress it’s brain growth, and it would also be immoral for you to kill it, or use it for parts. Kind of like in the matrix…it was immoral for those robots to use the humans for energy, even if the humans didn’t know the difference.

            This is the thing: Personhood is a real thing, with a real definition. You understand that definition. It’s something like, “the combination of consciousness, interests, self-awareness, and plans, that makes us able to understand our own suffering and the suffering of others, which, in turn makes us morally responsible agents and makes others morally responsible to us,”

            Infants only have 3 of those things,(consciousness, self-awareness(maybe), and interests (it’s own life)) and I would argue that a fetus has the same three as an infant. Have you ever seen a fetus sucked out of it’s mother? It actually tries to escape, it holds on to protect it’s life. Just because it is lacking 2 of them doesn’t mean it’s any less valuable than a 9 year old. I would actually go further to say that if you even have the potential to have those things, you are a person.

            “It’s as if, for example, after you’ve said that one characteristic of swans is that they are white, you’ve been shown a black swan and you reply, “That is a white swan, or at least potentially white by virtue of it’s swan-ness, so it is therefore still white.”

            This analogy doesn’t fit i don’t think. Swans turn from black to white as pert of their natural development…if i saw a black swan i would say that’s still a swan…it’s color doesn’t matter, just like the color of a person doesn’t matter…in fact if you just changed that analogy to person instead of swan it would sound silly…I would argue that whether it was black or white it is still a person…and if it’s a zygote, it’s a person at an early stage in development.

            You will never successfully be able to draw a line between personhood and non personhood when it comes to the development of a human being…every attempt you make will be arbitrary. Even your beloved Thompson agrees with this…even though she doesn’t believe that a zygote is a person, she understands the force of this argument.

          • Mike Norman

            That “Like” on your comment was a terrible accident. I meant to reply and missed.

            My analogy fit perfectly. It fits so perfectly that your response descended into nonsense. I’ll present it again. Please realize that this is your last chance to demonstrate minimal competence at symbolic reasoning to any who are reading this.

            “Personhood” has a philosophical definition that relates to those qualities that a being must have for it in order to participate in the moral realm in certain ways. For example, some of those required qualities are self-awareness, awareness of the future (the ability to plan), and so on. Noticeably, all these things require a brain. “Whiteness” has a definition relating to the spectrum of colors that strike the eye and are then perceived by the brain. “Personhood” is analogous to “Whiteness” in that they both have contingent definitions.

            The statement “All humans have personhood” either makes a contingent assertion, namely, that every human being we find in the world will be found after the fact to have that set of qualities that combine to make personhood, or makes an analytic assertion, namely, that personhood is some other thing, not related to self-awareness, cognition, and so on, but is rather just something we define to be a property of “human.”

            The statement “All swans are white” either makes a contingent assertion, namely, that every swan we find in the world will be found after the fact to have a coat that reflects the full visible portion of the spectrum of sunlight, or makes an analytic assertion, namely, that white is some other thing, not related to the visible portion of he spectrum of sunlight, but is rather just something we define to be a property of “swan.”

            To show you a fetus without a brain forces you to choose between the contingent and analytic definitions of the statement “All humans are persons.” If you say, “This brainless fetus is a person,” then you have chosen the analytic definition, the one that says, “Definition of personhood be damned! I need this fetus to be a person, so it is!” In this case, you must recognize that your definition is different than the philosophical definition, and that you cannot carry on meaningful conversations about the personhood of brainless fetuses, with people who care about actual personhood, without continually clarifying which definition you are using in the moment.

            To show you a swan with a black coat forces you to choose between the contingent and analytic definitions of the statement “All swans are white.” If you say, “This black-coated swan is white,” then you have chosen the analytic definition, the one that says, “Definition of whiteness be damned! I need this swan to be white, so it is!” In this case, you must recognized that your definition is different than the physical definition, and that you cannot carry on meaningful conversations about the color of the black swan, with people who care about actual colors, without continually clarifying which definition you are using in the moment.

            Thus, saying, “All humans, including brainless zygotes, are persons!,” is exactly analogous to saying, “All swans, including black ones, are white!”

            Your response to the analogy was:

            “This analogy doesn’t fit i don’t think. Swans turn from black to white as pert of their natural development…if i saw a black swan i would say that’s still a swan…it’s color doesn’t matter, just like the color of a person doesn’t matter…in fact if you just changed that analogy to person instead of swan it would sound silly…I would argue that whether it was black or white it is still a person…and if it’s a zygote, it’s a person at an early stage in development.”

            The point wass not whether the black swan is a swan, but whether it is white. Sheesh. Pay. The fuck. Attention.

            I have something of a quandary that maybe you can help me with. Was your response simply the stupidest way possible to miss the point of a clear analogy? Or was it the most cowardly and inept playing of the race card I’ve ever seen? Or was it, perhaps, both of these and more? It seems to me that the fact that you missed the point of the analogy in such an insipid manner actually paved the way for the most inept and cowardly use of the race card I’ve ever seen. I’m open to reasoned correction on the matter. Oh, and I refer you to the pretty pictures on the Wikipedia page about swans. Highly educational. Yes, the preceding was abusive. But reason hasn’t worked so far, and you are operating outside the realm of reason and far inside the realm of bias, emotion, and cowardice. Reason will clearly not help you. Snap out of it!

            You continue (Oh, how you continue!):

            “You will never successfully be able to draw a line between personhood and non personhood when it comes to the development of a human being…every attempt you make will be arbitrary.”

            Again, this is a clear example of your bias toward your desired conclusion clouding your judgment at even the most basic level. (Oh dear. The solution to your conundrum involves analogous cases. Please try to follow along.) Take the law about age of consent for sexual relations. Let’s say that it’s 18 in either of our jurisdictions. Neither of us believes that either of the groups in charge of our jurisdictions has said, “Due to the obvious fact that someone 17 years and 364 days old is in no way capable of informed consent relating to sex and, further, that everyone exactly 18 years old or older is perfectly able to decide and will never make a mistake regarding sexual conduct, we decree that an age of 18 years is the age of consent!” Instead, what we think happened is that those in charge said, “Here is a finely graded problem. Further, personal and biological development are complicated and proceed at varying speeds, if we could even define a ‘speed’ for development. Nonetheless, we need to put something into law, no matter how imperfect, that is as just as we can be in an imperfect world. For various reasons, 18 seems like an acceptable age.” And neither of us thinks that this invalidates the age of consent. Fetal personhood is an analogous problem, with an analogous solution. Yes, these solutions are arbitrary, but neither of us is going to say that an 8-year-old is capable of informed consent to intercourse. And neither of us is going to say that a zygote is capable of cognition, a prerequisite for the coherent philosophical definition of personhood, the moment immediately after conception.

            To put a name on this thing that you are doing, this bias or tactic or mistake, depending on one’s perspective: you are guilty of a kind of psychological special pleading. When your conclusion is threatened, I have found you to ignore, misconstrue, conflate, misdirect, and generally do whatever the hell you feel like as long as it makes your immediate perception of cognitive dissonance go away. Any thinking person who has paid attention to our exchange sees this. This is probably why they have declined to chime in. It really does seem like a fool’s errand on my part, to try to disabuse you of this way of thinking. I mean, look at the pieces of your response that I quoted in this message. Your desperation is evident in that you denied that I had separated the concepts personhood from humanness, and then, in the next paragraph, said, “Well, you can’t make a non-arbitrary decision about when a fetus becomes a person.” Which is it? Did I separate the concepts? If I did not, does it even make sense to say, “fetus developing personhood?” You can’t bring yourself to verbalize the distinction directly, but you use it rhetorically. You seem to me to have to avoid the discomfort of articulating it, but also have to respond to it in order to avoid feeling that you have lost.

            I’ve thus far undertaken this fool’s errand because you’ve been a bit of a puzzle to me. You affect, here and on Stickam, the air of one who is inquisitive and honest. And I’ve been pulled in before, after a lengthy stretch of plausibly reasonable utterances from you, only to find you making the most ignorant and obvious logical U-turns, committing the most blatant non sequiturs, as soon as we brush up against one of your cherished beliefs. This errand has been an experiment to find out what happens when Graffight is presented with clear logic contradicting a limited and clearly defined tenet of one of his cherished beliefs. The sample size is small, but the answer so far seems, to me, to be, “Graffight obfuscates himself into a fog so that he can pretend that his belief has not been genuinely challenged.”

            For myself, I have my result. Until I feel that you develop the courage to face your own cognitive dissonance without distorting your opponents claims and obstinately refusing to see what’s before your eyes, I’m done with you. It would be irresponsible of me to further fuel your delusion that you are a fair-minded and thinking person by consenting to speak with you about intellectual matters until you fundamentally change your ways. Let’s make this a definable thing, even if over-generously defined, for the sake of constructiveness. When you admit that declaring a black swan white is directly analogous to declaring a brainless fetus to have philosophically-defined personhood, then I will consent to speak to you on intellectual matters again.

            Until then, Principal Max Anderson in Billy Madison said it best. “[Graffight], what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having [read]to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.”

      • MrJmm999

        ” the fetus is “HUMAN” life. Meaning left to natural devises a human fetus will never grow into anything else besides a human.”

        No…this is why there is a legal distinction pre viability and post viability. “left to natural devices”….a fetus dies if it is not viable. THIS is why there is a distinction between the two.

  • Christ724

    I think the main problem with this debate stems from a confusion in the language we use.

    Someone mentioned something about ‘personhood’ and I believe that to be a much more accurate statement about where most of the debate takes place. We argue over when ‘life begins’ but we all know when life begins and it is at conception…but what do we mean by life? Ask any scientist and they’ll agree life begins at conception but their use of ‘life’ has to fall into a specific set of criteria and many life forms fit it like grass, skin cells, dogs, flies, trees, etc. Is this the ‘life’ that we are talking about? Are we all going to then defend animal rights from being abused and become vegans and be tree huggers? (no offense to those who are ;P)

    The point is to define where a clump of cells become a ‘person’ and I believe Salitica suggested that ‘personhood’ begins when sentience is attained and I would agree. After all, it is a woman’s right to choose what to do with her body but it is true that once we recognize the fetus (or whatever the technical term is) as a living human being than it’s no longer a woman’s right but a child’s right to live. Even then we trend on the morally gray area of whether the baby’s birth could put the mother’s life in danger.

    It’s a very tricky issue but I believe when we clarify our stances, it kinda gets much simpler in my opinion.

    As for the debate between Theo and Brock. Theo wins again with his clarity and focus. I do apologize by the way for the last debate Theo. It wasn’t as bad as I made it out to be seeing where you wanted the debate to go but instead it kind of got derailed.

    • Salitica

      ditto here, it does appear that he had a different motive than the paying for school argument.

      win some lose some, but his counter argument to school vouchers i feel is relevant

    • Graffigth

      so why is sentience the time when one gains personhood? I have a thought experement for you.

      If your mother were in a coma, and had no sentience whatsoever, but the doctor told you that he had seen your mother’s case before and without fail with in 9 months she will regain conscienceness and go on to live a normal life. Would it be OK to kill your mother?

      It seems as if sentience is just as arbitray a point as when the baby grows fingernails.

      • Salitica

        “If your mother were in a coma, and had no sentience whatsoever, but the doctor told you that he had seen your mother’s case before and without fail with in 9 months she will regain conscienceness and go on to live a normal life. Would it be OK to kill your mother?”

        What does this have to do with sentience? Or abortion? But I know where you are coming from, i just can’t take the leap into denying a women a right to choose when the time is right. Sometimes mistakes happen.

        “It seems as if sentience is just as arbitray a point as when the baby grows fingernails. ”

        Brain development is not arbitrary, we are quite well aware of the stages of fetal neural development and i can most likely pinpoint a definitive point at which sentience takes place.

        A comatose mother is still sentient.

        • Graffight

          “What does this have to do with sentience?”

          Well I guess that depends on what you mean by sentience? But the idea heare is that your mother is not sentient BUT will be sentiaent again in 9 months. Would her lack of sentience disqualify her from her right to life?

          “What does this have to do with sentience? Or abortion? But I know where you are coming from, i just can’t take the leap into denying a women a right to choose when the time is right. Sometimes mistakes happen.”

          Brain development is just as arbetrary as fingernail, or face, or hand, or heart, or head, or bones or any other piece of human anatomy. Also at what point in brain development does a fetus have sentiance?

          “A comatose mother is still sentient.”

          What is your definition of sentient?

          • Salitica

            Sentient is the ability to reason coupled with communication ability. Though good old mom in the coma is currently not, she will be again, a zygote has yet to achieve that stage.

            A fetus at a certain stage, that is specifically definable, achieves full reasoning ability and is fully capable of processing communication to and expressing in a communicative fashion.

            mom was sentient prior to entering the coma, and medical opinion indicates the she will be again.

          • Graffight

            I’m sorry but im failing to see the difference here. Because your mother has achieved the stage onece, somehow that gives her more value? The zygote left to natural devices will achieve sentiaence every time. (unless by some natural cause it is ejected like a miscarrage)

            so where is that specifically definable point where the fetus achieves full reasoning ability?

            Mom and the fetus both lacked sentiece, but you say that mom has a right to life….obviously sentience isn’t the issue here.

      • Haysoos

        Here’s my thought experiment in response to your thought experiment: Firstly, I’ll ask you to grant that there is a stage in fetal development some time after conception in which a fetus attains sentience, however you define sentience.

        Imagine the same woman in two parallel universes. In Universe A, the woman chooses not to have unprotected sex, and in Universe B she does. In B, before the fetus reaches that sentience point, she has a miscarriage. I ask then, what is the difference between universes A and B with regard to the welfare of all members of that universe? Now, imagine a second scenario, which is the same, except in Universe B the woman gets an abortion at the same point where she got a miscarriage in the previous scenario.

        The way I see it, what this demonstrates is that in terms of the experience of the people in the universe, getting an abortion before the fetus attains sentience is the same as not getting pregnant in the first place, because if the fetus is not sentient, it does not experience getting aborted, and it is as if it never existed.

        In your example with the mother, then the problem is that the mother already has had experiences and so she can personally know the difference between living and not living. Also, being in a coma is not the same as not being sentient. You’re basically equating sentience with consciousness. The woman in a coma is still sentient, she is just unable to perceive the outside world. However, her brain is still functioning, and so she is still having some level of experience, which is the same as a sentient fetus. However, a non-sentient fetus experiences nothing; it has the same level of consciousness as something that is not alive.

        • Graffight

          The problem with your thought experiment is that it is equivicating a natural occurence (miscarrage) with an unnatrual one (abortion) It’s like saying if the unibomber killed thousands of people and a hurricane or earthquake killed the same number we are left with the same net result and there is no difference….obviously this is untrue.

          “The way I see it, what this demonstrates is that in terms of the experience of the people in the universe, getting an abortion before the fetus attains sentience is the same as not getting pregnant in the first place, because if the fetus is not sentient, it does not experience getting aborted, and it is as if it never existed.

          In your example with the mother, then the problem is that the mother already has had experiences and so she can personally know the difference between living and not living. Also, being in a coma is not the same as not being sentient. You’re basically equating sentience with consciousness. The woman in a coma is still sentient, she is just unable to perceive the outside world. However, her brain is still functioning, and so she is still having some level of experience, which is the same as a sentient fetus. However, a non-sentient fetus experiences nothing; it has the same level of consciousness as something that is not alive. ”

          How does someone who is dead know that they are not aive…how could they tell the difference? Further why does experience even matter? Are you saying that as long as I can remove someones experiance of death it is ok to kill them then? What is it that people who die experience anyway?

          So what is your definition of sentience? It seem as if when you say “fetus attains sentience, however you define sentience.” you aknowledge this term can be ambiguous, but you seem very confident that your definiton is correct when you say. “You’re basically equating sentience with consciousness” implying that there is a difference. So what is the difference?

          • Haysoos

            “The problem with your thought experiment is that it is equivicating a natural occurence (miscarrage) with an unnatrual one (abortion) It’s like saying if the unibomber killed thousands of people and a hurricane or earthquake killed the same number we are left with the same net result and there is no difference….obviously this is untrue.”

            I don’t agree with this. This is why in the terms of my simulation, specified “with regard to the welfare of all members of that universe” when comparing the two universes. For what you’re describing, with regard to the well-being of all people affected by either disaster, it is irrelevant whether the disaster is man-made or not. Either way, the loss caused by either event can be equated to amount of lost life, property damage and other damage. Basically, “what caused this?” is irrelevant to “how bad is it?” The cause only becomes relevant when you ask “how can we prevent this?”

            The point of the simulation though is to demonstrate that in each universe I proposed, no one who is able to feel or experience anything is impacted negatively, and the state of events is the same as if the woman had made a completely moral choice and decided not to have sex at all. Getting an early term abortion results in effectively no difference from the scenario where there was no fetus in the first place. Because of this, I say the question “how can we prevent this” is unnecessary.

            “How does someone who is dead know that they are not aive…how could they tell the difference? Further why does experience even matter? Are you saying that as long as I can remove someones experiance of death it is ok to kill them then? What is it that people who die experience anyway?”

            The point is not that they are experiencing death, it’s that they are no longer experiencing life. When we talk about whether abortion should be legal, then since, as many of pointed out, abortion necessarily results in ending a life, we need to ask “why is death undesirable” and by extension “why is causing death generally wrong?” When I think about why I don’t want to die, I realize it is completely irrelevant to the experience of dying, and that the reason I don’t want to die is that I don’t want to be dead. And it is because I’ve experienced living that I can desire not to be dead. I have an identity, including thoughts, memories and perception, which are all things I want to have and death would take away. But if you removed all those things, thoughts, memories, and perception (I think in order to have memories you have to have some level of perception, so memories I guess might be an off-shoot of perception) then I would be functionally dead, so it would make no difference to me if you ended the rest of my life functions. My point is that a fetus before sentience does not have thoughts or perception, and therefore cannot desire not to be dead. The desire not to be dead is important, because if someone is truly suicidal, meaning they know they actually want to die, and they aren’t just in an emotional swing or they aren’t trying crying for help, then I think it should be fine to cause them to die, according to their wishes, though I would still try to help them.

            The question of the woman in a coma is weird, because without consciousness, she cannot actively desire not to be dead, but she also cannot desire to die, though she has the capacity to do either. To me it’s the same question as killing someone in their sleep. While sleeping, they can’t actively desire not to be dead, and if someone doesn’t care if they live or die, then it’s fine to kill them, right? Either way though, someone sleeping or in a coma has the capacity to desire to live or die, and a fetus before a certain point does not.

            “It seem as if when you say “fetus attains sentience, however you define sentience.” you aknowledge this term can be ambiguous, but you seem very confident that your definiton is correct when you say. “You’re basically equating sentience with consciousness” implying that there is a difference. So what is the difference?”

            I said “however you define sentience” because I didn’t want to go into the definition of sentience at the moment, and my experiment works even if you don’t have the same definition as I do. The definition though is ability to feel and perceive. The difference between that and consciousness is that consciousness entails actually feeling and perceiving the real world. If someone is unconscious, they might still be dreaming, and in that way they will be experiencing something. Sentience must be present for consciousness, but not the other way around.

            I have noticed that my argument could possibly be tailored to say that killing animals is wrong, and I’m not sure I disagree with this, but I mainly don’t think about it because the world becomes a much crappier place if one believes killing animals is wrong.

          • Graffight

            “I don’t agree with this. This is why in the terms of my simulation, specified “with regard to the welfare of all members of that universe” when comparing the two universes. For what you’re describing, with regard to the well-being of all people affected by either disaster, it is irrelevant whether the disaster is man-made or not. Either way, the loss caused by either event can be equated to amount of lost life, property damage and other damage. Basically, “what caused this?” is irrelevant to “how bad is it?” The cause only becomes relevant when you ask “how can we prevent this?”

            I also cannot agree that the welbeing of all the people in the universe is the only thing that is relevent. I feel that the moral quality of the events leading to the outcome are also important, and one set of events is morally better than the other. I’ll demonstrate by changing your idea around a bit.

            Imagine the same woman in two parallel universes. In Universe A, the woman chooses not to have unprotected sex, and in Universe B she does. In B, an hour after the child is born it dies naturally. I ask then, what is the difference between universes A and B with regard to the welfare of all members of that universe? Now, imagine a second scenario, which is the same, except in Universe B the doctor euthanises the baby painlessly at the mother’s request at the same time he died naturally in universe A.

            So what has changed here? Is there anything wrong with the second scenario? In this situation could you still say “Basically, “what caused this?” is irrelevant to “how bad is it?” The cause only becomes relevant when you ask “how can we prevent this?”

            “The point of the simulation though is to demonstrate that in each universe I proposed, no one who is able to feel or experience anything is impacted negatively, and the state of events is the same as if the woman had made a completely moral choice and decided not to have sex at all. Getting an early term abortion results in effectively no difference from the scenario where there was no fetus in the first place. Because of this, I say the question “how can we prevent this” is unnecessary.”

            ahh…but therein lies the question. Is someone’s experiance what causes something to be bad? If the 12 year old little girl doesn’t notice the pedophile peeping into her window while she dresses does her lack of experiance make the act ok? Or if man cheats on his wife and she never finds out about it, and there were no negative consequences..is that ok? So as you can see from these examples the collective experiance of the people involved is not the only thing we take into consideration when assessing the moral value of an action…just because the unborn cannot experiance being killed, doesn’t make it ok to kill it.

            “I said “however you define sentience” because I didn’t want to go into the definition of sentience at the moment, and my experiment works even if you don’t have the same definition as I do. The definition though is ability to feel and perceive. The difference…”

            Again this is arbitrary based on something’s level of development but something being lesser developed does not disqualify it from being a person. A 12 year old is less developed than a 30 year old, but it’s not more valuable…why is personhod not established when one developes a moral sense, or reproductive organs? why not when it has a heartbeat, or bones? what is special about sentiance.

            I asked a hypothetical about this, saying if your mother lost here sentience, but the doctor is has seen her condition before and is sure that she will be ok in 9 months…would it bo ok to kill your mother?

            To this you answered: “In your example with the mother, then the problem is that the mother already has had experiences and so she can personally know the difference between living and not living”

            to which i replied: “How does someone who is dead know that they are not alive…how could they tell the difference? Further why does experience even matter? Are you saying that as long as I can remove someones experiance of death it is ok to kill them then? What is it that people who die experience anyway?”

            These are very important questions.

          • Haysoos

            “So what has changed here? Is there anything wrong with the second scenario? In this situation could you still say “Basically, “what caused this?” is irrelevant to “how bad is it?” The cause only becomes relevant when you ask “how can we prevent this?”"

            What has changed is that the baby has attained sentience and therefore can experience life, and therefore you are taking away its ability to experience life against its will, or not according to its will. However, in my situation, the fetus being killed does not have the ability to think or experience life, and therefore taking away its life is like taking away the life of some amoeba; it’s a cluster of cells that doesn’t feel or think anything. If I didn’t feel or think anything, it wouldn’t matter to me if you killed me. Your simulation is a good demonstration of why I think abortion should be legal before a certain point, and not after. Compared to the “moment of attaining sentience,” both “conception” and “birth” are quite arbitrary.

            And, you’ve misunderstood my point about the welfare of the people in the universe. In both your examples, the difference between A and B is in B, a sentient life form has lost its life not according to its will. In your second B, you say that is worse, even though the first B and the second B have no difference in terms of the welfare of all members of the universe. Yes, the second B is morally worse, but again, but the question “how bad is what took place” is not itself a moral question. That question is used to determine if something else is moral by asking of it “who is responsible.” A baby dying after it’s been born is bad, and the reason the second scenario is immoral is that someone chose to make something bad happen.

            It’s like the utilitarian system of morality. It judges ethicality by asking “how much pain/hurt/damage does an action cause and how much benefit does it cause?” That question itself though doesn’t factor in morality because it is used objectively to determine morality. The only reason the second B is “worse” than the first B is that in the second, someone could have easily chosen for that bad thing not to happen, and they didn’t. The thing that happened is not worse though, it’s just that in the natural case, it doesn’t feel as bad because it couldn’t have been prevented.

            Then you talk a lot about experience even though I explicitly said “When I think about why I don’t want to die, I realize ***it is completely irrelevant to the experience of dying,*** and that the reason I don’t want to die is that I don’t want to be dead.”

            It’s not the fact the fetus doesn’t experience dying, it’s that the word “dying” doesn’t even mean the same thing to the fetus as it does to us. When we, as sentient being, think about dying, we think of our thoughts ceasing, our memories disappearing, our senses turning off, and our consciousness going to a state lower than sleep. Secondarily, we think of our bodies shutting down, and the life functions more associated with biology stopping. However, the non-sentient fetus only has those secondary functions, so killing the fetus is, to repeat my example, like killing an amoeba. So yes, the fetus doesn’t experience dying, but that’s not what significant. What is significant is that it doesn’t have the life functions we as sentient beings consider valuable, and therefore killing it is not ending anything we consider valuable.

            When I say the mother has experienced life, I just mean it as she has thoughts, memories, and feelings— the things that make life valuable to sentient beings. Obviously not all life is inherently valuable, such as bacteria, and the reason is that bacteria doesn’t feel anything, so it doesn’t care if it dies.

            In your example with the mother, you again say she loses sentience and not consciousness. Being in a coma is losing consciousness and NOT losing sentience. Losing sentience means being brain dead. Aside from the impossibility of losing sentience and then coming back to life 9 months later, it makes the question “should we be able to kill her” kind of meaningless. If she has lost sentience, killing her won’t change anything except for possibly bodily function. In a coma, you’re still taking away her ability to feel and perceive, even if her contact with the real world is broken.

      • Christ724

        She would still have sentience in a coma, I think a better way of saying it would be if she were ‘brain dead’ or something. Frankly, this does not pertain to the way we would treat abortion in any way. The fact is that when I fetus develops this ‘personhood’ we apply certain rules to what is going on and in the scenario you gave, well, it’s a whole different game in a sense because we are not talking about whether someone is in the process of becoming ‘sentient’ it’s now a question as to whether, ‘now that the person is no longer sentient, is she truly alive?’. In this sense, yes she is alive but does she cease being a person? Well you’d have to ask whether everyone else who died stopped being human or disappeared from existence when they passed on. They didn’t did they? Our words are shaped more by actions and don’t mean much in themselves, this is why I think this topic causes so much tension most of it just caused by misunderstanding what the other person says, not purposefully but because we push the limits of our language.

        But if I were to make the choice, the choice would be dependent on my mother, who has in fact said, “Should anything like this happen to me and there is a sliver of hope, try it, however if they say there’s no chance of recovery, then just let me go. That’s not a life I want to live.” (paraphrasing btw)

  • Alexander D Graham

    What frustrates me most about arguments against abortion is that they solely focus on attacking women’s choice, when women’s choice is not the most convincing argument in favor of legal abortions. The question of personhood is what wins me over nine times out of ten. What is a person? Why do we define personhood this way? Do fetuses fit any definition of a person? If a pro-life proponent could attack this line of thinking in an effective and rational way, I would start to think about changing sides.

    • Thereprieve

      Does personhood begin in the womb or outside of it?

  • thegillotine09

    Ok Brock as usual just spouted the standard Republican rhetoric so as usual I’ll focus on Theo. Sorry, you’re just more interesting :P I will say that Brock does make an interesting point about government interfering in how we use our bodies with regards to drugs.
    I) Abortion
    The entire abortion issue to me is quite clearly entirely centered on whether you consider a fetus to be a living person. All other arguments are pretty much useless. For example, Theo says “No basis of establishing the personhood of a fetus or asserting its rights has been offered, but were it, it would need to be compelling because the interests women have in preserving their right to have an abortion are also compelling” which I think is completely irrelevant. If a fetus was established as a person, it would make no difference at all what effect it would have on the mother. I’ll support this by referring to Theo’s arguments for the right to abort and compare them to a right to kill a living person.
    (1) diseases can be detected and then prevented by abortion
    – The spread of disease can be prevented by killing the diseased. Would you defend a person’s right to kill their sick children?
    (2) legalized abortion makes abortion safe; illegalized abortion makes abortion unsafe and results in the deaths of thousands of women each year
    – Legalized assassination would make murder safe. Should we have it?
    (3) unwanted pregnancies increase crime because
    a) poor woman are more likely to have unwanted pregnancies and are less able to care for a child and
    b) unwanted babies are more likely to become criminals
    – Should people have the right to kill their children if they are unable to properly take care of them? And would it be ethical to kill an unwanted child because he is more likely to become a criminal? For that matter would it be ethical to kill a male child since they are far more likely to become criminals than female children?

    So obviously the legality of abortion hinges entirely on the status of a fetus as living or nonliving. Theo mentions that he defines the barrier between living and nonliving arbitrarily between conception and delivery, to which I ask: What criteria are you using to differentiate when it is ethical to terminate a fetus? Note that arbitrariness sucks.

    For the record I lean pro-choice but I sympathize with both positions.

    II) Euthanasia
    I wish Theo would have spent more time on this one because it’s the most interesting of the 3 topics discussed but I realize that he’s constrained by space so maybe we’ll get some more discussion in the comments.
    First off, Theo, you completely miss the point of why people oppose euthanasia. Nobody that I know argues against suicidal euthanasia. The issue is killing someone else to put them out of their misery. The issue is *not* whether someone should have the choice to end their lives, it is whether someone has the right to end another person’s life if they believe that the other person would be better off dead. We should of course differentiate between consentual and nonconsentual euthanasia. I do not believe you are arguing for nonconsential euthanasia, killing someone in pain without their consent, so I’ll focus on consentual euthanasia.

    Do you have the right to kill somebody if they ask you to do it? From a strictly legal sense, I say yes, provided you get a signed document assuring that it was indeed their will. However, there is a significant grey area morally here. Few, I think, would condemn the doctor who pulls the plug on the old man stricken with constant excruciating pain. But if someone suffering from manic depressive disorder hands you a pistol and tells you to shoot them, would you be justified in granting their request? Suicide is a very messy and scary issue. I believe that nearly everyone would agree that when those close to us come to us with contemplations of suicide it is our responsibility to help them, not to kill them, unless we are absolutely certain that suicide is really what they want. This is a delicate issue so the blundering ineptitude of government is pretty much useless here so I come to more or less the same conclusion that Theo does, albeit for different reasons.

    III) Death Penalty
    Of course this is the easiest of the three issues in my opinion. The death penalty is utterly ineffective as a deterrent and there are much more productive and ‘real’ ways to help the victims of a crime than retribution (how about a portion of the proceeds from the criminals’ labor going to the victim or the victim’s family?). Unfortunately Theo argues this issue quite poorly.

    2) There is nothing about the death penalty that is *inherently* racist. If you’re looking to close down institutions that are *effectively* racist then you should close down the entire prison system since the black and hispanic populations are strongly represented.
    2) Any legal matter, being decided upon by a jury or judge or personal judgment, is inherently biased.
    3) Talking about criminals not being allowed to forfeit their right to life directly contradicts your argument for euthanasia.
    4) Equating the death penalty to torture is irrelevant as the two are not the same.
    5) Using rhetoric such as “backward-looking”, “primitive”, “barbaric”, and “lesser instincts” is an anti-Traditionalist argument, and is exactly as pointless as Brock’s rhetoric about adhering to our forefathers’ will and “family values”. The value of a proposition is completely independent of its age or novelty and should be decided instead on its actual merits.

    • Homer177

      I agree with what you’re saying regarding both sides of the debate here. What I find particularly telling when it comes to Brock’s side of the issue is that he spins the whole Planned Parenthood bit by leaving out the fact that the abortions they perform only comprise about 3% of the services they perform (Yeah, that same 3% he said were medical abortions). I’d like to see Brock’s sources as to how Planned Parenthood managed to disgrace themselves, as I get the feeling the newly elected republican house is looking for any excuse to get rid of them, just like with ACORN.

      I hate to say it, but I find this debate entirely pointless. We all know how dishonest Brock is, and we also know how low he’ll go just to gain the upper hand. Sorry if my post was long winded and somewhat irrelevant in some areas, I just wanted to clarify some things Brock tried to spin here.

    • Bjørn

      Hey, just wanted to suggest that you’re coming at the abortion issue from the wrong angle.

      You claim that “the legality of abortion hinges entirely on the status of a fetus as living or nonliving”. I think that’s absolutely the wrong question. The fetus is obviously living, and no one would dispute that. The question you should be focusing on is whether the fetus is a person? Is it an individual that can be afforded/has rights? Does it have the right to live (at conception) at the expense of the mother (in a hypothetical case where bringing the fetus to term would kill the mother)?
      When you raise these questions the case of the anti-abortion camp crumbles.

      In our hypothetical case, why doesn’t the protection of the fetus amount to murder of the mother, when abortion of the fetus amounts to murder of a supposed child (in the eyes of the anti-abortion camp)?

      Allow me to suggest a test that helps you to draw the line. Someone is a person/individual when he/she is capable of a life independent of any already established persons. And I don’t mean the kind of dependence associated with helping someone eat. What we are talking about is that an early fetus is biologically incapable of a life outside the womb. Could the fetus live if removed from the womb? At conception, obviously not, while near full term it obviously could.

      Hence at conception the fetus is not an individual, therefore it does not have any rights. So there is nothing that can conflict with the right to self-determination that the woman has. Abortion is hence a legal choice.
      Just before full term the fetus *is* an individual. It has rights, one of which is the right to life. That right restricts the woman’s right of self-determination to actions that don’t impact the fetus’ right to life.
      Simple… problem solved.

      As an aside we could even suppose a case just before full term where both the mother and fetus as in life threatening conditions. How do their rights to life impact one another? I’d suggest it comes to to simple triage. Why is that so horrifying to the anti-abortion camp?

      • thegillotine09

        Yes person is a better qualifier than living, that was my mistake (otherwise it should be illegal to kill animals/plants for food).

        I totally agree about abortion where the life of the mother is in danger. However I see a flaw in your logic in claiming that allowing a fetus to grow in a mother would be allowing the fetus to murder the mother. Intent is a big part of murder, and as the fetus has no choice in the matter it can hardly be found morally at fault for death or injury it causes.

        “Someone is a person/individual when he/she is capable of a life independent of any already established persons.”
        This is why I’m pro-choice.

        • Bjørn

          “I totally agree about abortion where the life of the mother is in danger. However I see a flaw in your logic in claiming that allowing a fetus to grow in a mother would be allowing the fetus to murder the mother. Intent… ”

          That’s a fair point. Although my original objection was not that the fetus has any intent with regards to “murdering” it’s mother, because as you rightly point out it has no choice in the matter. That intent is only present in the people that would deny the woman an abortion, by law or otherwise. *They* are murdering the women, not the fetus.

          “”Someone is a person/individual when he/she is capable of a life independent of any already established persons.”
          This is why I’m pro-choice.”
          I agree wholeheartedly

      • Graffight

        “The question you should be focusing on is whether the fetus is a person? Is it an individual that can be afforded/has rights? ” – It is, and any attempt to disqualify it from personhood are arbitrary.

        Does it have the right to live (at conception) at the expense of the mother (in a hypothetical case where bringing the fetus to term would kill the mother)?”

        Actually this would be the only case in wich the mother would be justified in terminating the unborn child, just like in any other circumstance if someone is trying to kill you, you have the right to protect yourself…but abortions for medical reasons account for less than 6% of total abortions.

        “When you raise these questions the case of the anti-abortion camp crumbles.”

        not really, these are the same questions we are asking, though we answer them differently than you do. I would argue we have better reasons for answering the way we do than your reason answering in the negative.

        “Allow me to suggest a test that helps you to draw the line. Someone is a person/individual when he/she is capable of a life independent of any already established persons.”

        The degree of someone’s dependency is not cannot be used to establish their personhood. An infant is not capable of living without someone to care for it, in fact I doubt a child up to probably age 10 could survive on their own. Someone who requires a resperator cannot live on their own, and they are no less a person…we don’t go around killing people on dialisis because they cannot survive without it…the degree to which someone is dependent on something or someone else is irrelevent to whether or not it is a valuable human being.

        “Could the fetus live if removed from the womb? At conception, obviously not, while near full term it obviously could.”

        Funny that it’s still legal to abort the child at any of these stages up until the day before it is born, if the baby will be “serioudly handicapped”…somehow these children aren’t worthy of life.

        “Hence at conception the fetus is not an individual, therefore it does not have any rights. So there is nothing that can conflict with the right to self-determination that the woman has. Abortion is hence a legal choice.
        Just before full term the fetus *is* an individual. It has rights, one of which is the right to life. That right restricts the woman’s right of self-determination to actions that don’t impact the fetus’ right to life.
        Simple… problem solved.”

        How is it that you get to define personhood at the point where it can survive on it’s own, or at a full term, and others define it at the point where it can feel pain or has brain activity…who get’s to pick this arbetrary point, and why is THAT point selected instead of another one? On what basis do you make your decision?

        “As an aside we could even suppose a case just before full term where both the mother and fetus as in life threatening conditions. How do their rights to life impact one another? I’d suggest it comes to to simple triage. Why is that so horrifying to the anti-abortion camp?”

        I’m not sure I understand this…are you saying that the pregnancy itself cna be considered a life threatening condition? If you are just saying that if the child is threatening the mother’s life she should be able to abort i agree…it’s actually an extreemist view to say that no abortions should be able to be had even in the case of something like an ectopic pregnancy.

        • Bjørn

          “”The question you should be focusing on is whether the fetus is a person? Is it an individual that can be afforded/has rights? ” – It is, and any attempt to disqualify it from personhood are arbitrary.”

          Does an embryo have personhood? How do you justify your answer?

          “The degree of someone’s dependency is not cannot be used to establish their personhood”

          As I replied to Godlessons, it isn’t a constant evaluation of personhood, only a case of establishing when personhood is granted. For example, a person on life support doesn’t lose his personhood and his right to life isn’t “voided” by being on life support. In the case of a 10yr old, you’re right, he probably wouldn’t make it on his own, but he is clearly an individual capable of life independant of another person, where “capable of life independantly” refers to biological independance rather that surviving on your own. Consider that a fetus is essentially a parasite for a stage in it’s development. That’s the stage I’m talking about when I say “incapable of life outside the womb”. It is simply not developed enough to survive, whereas a baby carried to full term obviously is.

          “Funny that it’s still legal to abort the child at any of these stages up until the day before it is born, if the baby will be “serioudly handicapped”.”

          Oh really? 0.08% of abortions happen between week 24 and birth. I challange you to find a single case where the only reason that an abortion was carried out was due to a “serious handicap.”

          There is a reason why most countries has 12 weeks as the limit for standard abortions, and 20 weeks for certain medical reasons. Those are agreed upon as medically reasonable and moral, considering that a fetus isn’t viable until after week 21 (no viability before 21, all viable after 27). Most factor point to week 20 as being when the magic line. Which is why the limit for a standard abortion is much earlier. Everyone recognises that there must be a gray area there, hence 12 rather than 20…

          “are you saying that the pregnancy itself cna be considered a life threatening condition?”

          No, and I think we’re on the same page with the triage example.

      • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

        What is a person that can be afforded rights? Many states have laws that would charge someone with murder that forces a miscarriage on a woman. Since the woman is not the one being killed, it is no more than an assault on her, so the murder was of the fetus. Should a fetus not be protected from being killed by someone that is not the mother? If so, that fetus is a person and should be protected from murder by its mother as well. If not, I can go around all day assaulting mothers and killing their fetuses and only get charged with assault.

        To me, and almost everyone I have talked to, killing a fetus against the will of the mother should be considered murder, not assault. Where the disconnect usually happens is when we ask those same people if the mother should be able to essentially do the same thing.

        It is not whether or not a thing is capable of independent life. If we were to go by that standard, anyone on life support and people with artificial heart valves, hearts, etc. are no longer persons and can be killed arbitrarily with no consequence. Maybe we should just stop putting in artificial heart valves and hearts, since those people aren’t really people and they don’t deserve saving.

        I understand you’re trying to limit it to just cases where it affects fetuses, but you haven’t given us a definition yet that does that, and if you do, you need to justify why it should only apply to fetuses and not other people.

        • Bjørn

          “To me, and almost everyone I have talked to, killing a fetus against the will of the mother should be considered murder, not assault. Where the disconnect usually happens is when we ask those same people if the mother should be able to essentially do the same thing.”
          It is murder in most states due to the Unborn Victims of Violence Act which actually recognises a fetus as a legal victim. Maybe that would be a better avenue of attack for the anti-abortion camp…?
          The disconnect you mention is the same disconnect that exists in killing a man on the street, and the next of kin taking a man off life-support. One is murder, the other is not.

          “independent life. If we were to go by that standard, anyone on life support and people with artificial heart valves, hearts, etc. are no longer persons and can be killed arbitrarily ”
          It might seem that way, but I’ll carify my point so you won’t miss it. A person on life support has a right to life like any other person. The right to life isn’t “voided” by being on life support. You’re trying to compare taking away human rights of people on life support with when we award those rights to an fetus.

          “I understand you’re trying to limit it to just cases where it affects fetuses, but you haven’t given us a definition yet that does that, and if you do, you need to justify why it should only apply to fetuses and not other people”
          Do you get the definition and justification now? Or do you still object to it?

          Edit: I suppose a better definition of what I was trying to say would be:
          “Someone *becomes* a person/individual when he/she is capable of a life independent of any already established persons”

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            The disconnect you mention is the same disconnect that exists in killing a man on the street, and the next of kin taking a man off life-support. One is murder, the other is not.

            Those two things aren’t anywhere near similar. Let’s say that I were to administer a drug to a woman, without her knowledge, that caused her to miscarry. It would be exactly the same as her doing it herself. It’s hard to call that violent, yet I would still be able to be charged with murder. The method of death of the fetus is exactly the same as when a woman gets an abortion chemically. Call it removing life support or whatever you want. The problem becomes, the exact same act is a crime against the fetus if I do it, but not if the mother does.

            Let’s look at it another way. If I were a doctor, and I administered a drug that I was told not to, without the permission of the person I am administering it to, if that drug killed the person it was administered to, it would be murder, but even if it had no effect at all, I would be charged with assault. If a fetus is not the one being protected, giving a drug that aborts the fetus should be nothing more than assault right, even to people that aren’t doctors right? Fetuses don’t have rights to protect, so it should never be murder. It is though.

            So, we have a situation where either fetuses should be protected from murder, even from the mother, or killing a fetus, even against the mother’s will, should be at the very worst an assault on the mother. Those are the only two choices I see.

            A person on life support has a right to life like any other person. The right to life isn’t “voided” by being on life support. You’re trying to compare taking away human rights of people on life support with when we award those rights to an fetus.

            I have established that a fetus currently has the right to life, since we charge people with murder for killing them.

            Because of that, the life support problem is identical, unless you can show that a fetus doesn’t have the right to life, which goes against what the laws on the books currently say.

            The only inconsistency in this whole thing is that we don’t charge mothers and doctors with homicide for contracting to and killing fetuses.

          • Bjørn

            Let’s say that I were to administer a drug to a woman, without her knowledge, that caused her to miscarry

            = not consent = a crime

            doing it herself

            = consent = not a crime
            How on earth can you claim with a straigth face that It would be exactly the same…”?

            Since you’ve misunderstood allow me to clarify again the life support argument.

            1. Life support
            A fetus in the womb is akin to a man on life support. The next of kin may give consent to take the person off life support. A mother can withdraw consent to “being” the life support.

            What are the legal situations that can arise from a man on life support and a fetus? Well, the man could be killed on the street = murder. His next of kin could take him off life support = not murder. He could (on purpose / by accident) be taken off life support without the consent of the next of kin = the man dies = a crime, either murder or manslaughter depending on how it happens (intent).

            I assume you have no problem with the legal situation around the man, and note that the “method of death” you mentioned previously is exactly the same whether he gets taken off life support with or without the consent of the next of kin. Yet, one is a crime, the other is not. So there are already distictions made in law depending on intent and consent, which means that pointing to that as a “problem” in terms of abortion is meaningless.

            What about the legal situations that can arise from a women with a fetus? She could consent to having an abortion = not a crime. Someone could induce an abortion without her consent (either a doctor with some drugs, or someone assaulting her in the street causing her to miscarry) = murder or assault (depending on state). The fetus dies (miscarriage/stillbirth etc) = not a crime.

            The two situations have much in common. The moral and legal nature of what happens depends very much on consent and intent. Two “methods” can be exactly the same, yet result in different legal status (crime/not crime). Your argument that the method is the same in an abortion as it is if a doctor induces an abortion without her consent is meaningless. Now the mother does have the right to consent to not have the fetus on life support. In addition she *is* the life support, with all the implications that it carries.

            When you go on to say that:

            So, we have a situation where either fetuses should be protected from murder, even from the mother, or killing a fetus, even against the mother’s will, should be at the very worst an assault on the mother”…

            … You are disregarding intent and consent. If your reasoning were sound, then all men should be protected from “murder” even when the next of kin taking you off life support. In fact it would be illegal to not save someone who’s signed a “Do Not Resuscitate” thus violating the “Patient Self-Determination Act”.

            Also, you said this:

            I have established that a fetus currently has the right to life, since we charge people with murder for killing them.

            Just wanna point out that you haven’t. As I said before: what happens there is that fiticide is a crime under US law because US law recognises a fetus as a “legal victim” in those cases. Not because they have already been afforded the right to life.

            The only inconsistency in this whole thing is that we don’t charge mothers and doctors with homicide for contracting to and killing fetuses.

            Only if you would also prosecute next of kin and doctors for contracting to and killing people on life support.

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            A legal victim of murder is not protected from murder and isn’t a person? I guess we could call my big toe a legal victim of murder too if someone were to cut it off. That would make as much sense.

            You seem to recognize that administering a drug against someone’s will is a crime, but in the case of administering an aborting drug, who is the victim of murder? If the victim is not the fetus, and the mother lives, where is the murder if the fetus is not protected? It should be merely an assault on the mother, just as any other drug administered without the consent of the patient that doesn’t kill the patient.

            Without you understanding this simple concept, we won’t get anywhere. Your whole last comment shows a complete misunderstanding of the reality of this simple scenario.

          • Bjørn

            By the gods, just *read* the act that talks about feticide, and you might get it. And the correct term for the unlawful killing of a fetus is feticide, not “murder”.

            Administrating an abortion drug against the will of the woman is feticide. Read that again: against the will of the woman, Whose will? The woman’s.
            Administrating an aobrtion drug with the woman’s consent is *not* feticide. Read that again: with the woman’s consent. Whose consent? The woman’s.

            This is how the Unborn Victims of Violence Act works. By recognising the fetus as a legal victim we are able to prosecute assault leading to miscarriage as feticide. Not because the fetus has rights that would otherwise allow that acto to be prosecutable as feiticide, because it doesn’t. You may want it to have those rights, but it just doesn’t. It explicitly states that consensual abortion is not prosecutable. It is not a crime.

            Which is why I bring up the analogy to a man on life support. Incidentally, you never attempted to answer whether you though taking someone off life support should be considered murder, or the legality of DNRs

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            You seem to think it’s only in one place. Are you talking about the USC, UCMJ, or any of the 34 state laws that prohibit it?

            Are you telling me that you have read every one of those 36 sets of laws regarding this issue, and not one of them calls it murder or homicide? I have a very hard time believing you.

            How about we just look at one case. Laci Peterson. What was Scott Peterson convicted of? Was it feticide or murder when it concerns the baby? I’ll give you a hint. It wasn’t feticide.

            As for calling taking someone off life support murder, or the legality of a DNR, I’ll deal with the last first. I think people have the right to kill themselves, much less make a contract that makes it illegal for anyone to resuscitate them. As for the first, although I don’t think there is a similarity, the fact is, it isn’t an option unless its generally believed by the physicians that the person will not recover in any reasonable amount of time, unless there is a DNR. That is not the same as abortion, and comparing the two is totally apples and oranges.

          • Bjørn

            Are you telling me that you have read every one of those 36 sets of laws regarding this issue, and not one of them calls it murder or homicide

            Christ, I see I’m gonna have to connect the dots for you…Feticide is the killing of a fetus. In a legal context it’s referred to as “fetal homicide”, which means that feticide is a form of homicide. What is murder? It is “criminal homicide”. Is abortion legal? Yes it is. That’s why abortion is not murder. It is feticide. Not all homicides are murder, not all feticides are murder.

            What about deliberate or incidental feticide without the woman’s consent? That would be criminal fetal homicide, hence murder. What distinguishes the two is the consent of the woman. So the killing of Connor Pateson was murder, but if the Luci Paterson had taken an abortion (before 12 weeks) it would not have been murder.

            Do you get it yet?

            As for DNRs, life support and abortion: All I’m doing is drawing attention to three forms of homicide (seems like I’m comparing oranges and oranges after all…). Any categorical stance you take on abortion has implications elsewhere.

            Now, I know you approve of abortion for medical reasons, but how do you feel about abortion in cases of rape or incest? For the sake of argument I’m gonna assume (and hope) you’d be ok with abortion after a rape. How long after the rape should the woman be allowed to have an abortion? As soon as she finds out she’s pregnant? That could take a month. Can she have an abortion if she, for whatever reason, doesn’t report the rape? Maybe we should draw a line somewhere that gives the woman time to figure out she’s pregnant, go through the medical testing and make up her mind what she wants to do. Currently the medical experts say that the first trimester is a reasonable line. So how about we make the limit around 12 weeks? Oh what do you know, that the limit for abortions today.

            So in that world where only rape victims and women with medical conditions are allowed abortion, we’d have to have a limit more or less the same as the one we have today. So, the question becomes: “If you’re so against abortions because it is “murder” (as we established, it ain’t in *this* world), how can you support abortion in cases of rape and medical conditions when that would also be “murder”? Can you do so without being a hypocrite?

          • MrJmm999

            Jesus christ you don’t pay attention. I have told you that the death of a fetus is treated differently. I explained that murder was divided into first, second degree and further divided into several manslaugher charges. All the time I kept telling you that we treated the death of a fetus differently. You just said…no we don’t. NOw you have gone so far as to even tell us what Scott Peterson was conviced of. You really do your homework don’t you. Google Scott Peterson conviction.

            http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6385208/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

            “Six men and six women convicted Peterson Friday of the first-degree murder of his wife, Laci, and the second-degree murder of the fetus she was carrying”

            Total research time….45 seconds.

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            You have no clue what you’re talking about. Of course it was second degree murder. They couldn’t show that the primary victim was the child, just the mother. The child was therefore left as a secondary, non-premeditated victim. So, go read up on why people get charged with first or second degree murder and get back to me when you’ve enlightened yourself.

          • MrJmm999

            “They couldn’t show that the primary victim was the child, just the mother.”

            “primary victim was the child”. NO…all you have to show is that you killed a person with malice aforethought. He knew his wife was pregnant. He knew killing her would kill the child. Please show me some legal sourses for your claim about “they couldn’t prove the primary victim was a child” You are talking out your ass right now and have no clue what you are talking about. It was second degree for the SAME reason i have said all along. We treat them differently.

    • Balanceseeker

      I know abortion and the death penalty is the hotly contested issues right now, but as my former home in Oregon passed the Death with Dignity Act a number of years back, I wanted to address your claims regarding euthanasia.

      First, Theo is *spot on* when he suggests that many individuals are opposed to people ending their own lives. Yes, some people do take the line you are drawing, but in my experience, you are the exception – not the rule. Indeed, the people who oppose Oregon’s law (and it is quite a number of individuals) are opposing the very position you say people do not oppose – namely ending one’s own life out of one’s own volition.

      Second, regarding your morally gray area, no such gray area exists under the Oregon statute. In order to qualify for euthanasia, a psychologist must sign off on one’s sanity; further one needs to consult two medical doctors. These steps are put in place to ensure three things:

      1) The applicant is capable of honestly making such a decision.
      2) The applicant is knowledgeable about the issue and has considered all other options.
      3) The applicant’s first doctor is not leaving out some details that are important to the case.

      Finally, one must wait another 30 days after approval has been granted before the killing drugs are able to be picked up.

      Third, this law has survived legal challenges and similar laws are being considered in other states, showing that not only is the government not inept, but the government can provide such end of life choices ethically.

      Also, interestingly enough, many of the applicants under this law actually do not carry through with it. Some simply say that just knowing that they could end it makes the pain more bearable.

      Where I think one gets into the morally gray area is when the patient is not capable of communication with doctors or loved ones. Then one is left to asking family members what the wishes of the loved one is, and when one family member disagrees with the other, and no living will is left behind, lawsuits and other legal actions often ensue as individuals argue back and forth as to what the patient actually would want.

    • MrJmm999

      “Do you have the right to kill somebody if they ask you to do it? From a strictly legal sense, I say yes, provided you get a signed document assuring that it was indeed their will.”

      Actually, no. There are very few crimes that cannot be “negated” (for lack of a better term) by consent. Murder is one of these few. You cannot consent to a murder. However, you didn’t say “murder” you said “kill”. Legally, you cannot consent to murder. I know this for a fact. However, i’m not sure about other forms of “killing” Do you think that someone can consent to manslaugher?

      “So obviously the legality of abortion hinges entirely on the status of a fetus as living or nonliving”

      I am pretty sure nobody is denying that a fetus is living. The question is “is it a person”…and Theo stated this in his essay.

    • theowarner

      Ah, there you are.

      In response to abortion, you asked a serious of questions which were, I suppose, designed to expose some sort of weakness in my argument. I’m sure what your point is — or why you didn’t make it. No, people should not kill sick people, nor people in general, nor boys, nor poor people. All of those people (people, sick people, boys, and poor people) are people. We have no reason to ascribe personhood to a fetus.

      In response to euthanasia, I understand that there is also a question about whether people can end the life of elderly (let’s say: people in persistent vegetative coma). I would oppose it, I think. It violates choice. Although, I will say that the issue is complicated because such persons would have no ability to choice and may no longer exhibit personhood. I don’t have a quick answer there. That’s why I focused on peeople who can make that choice.

      As for your comments on the death penalty, I’m not moved by your response (not of them, really). Sure, they are effectively and not inherently racist. So what? You confuse my meaning of “bias.” When a criminal forfeits a right, it’s through a criminal act. We’re talking about our choices about criminals, not their own choices about their own lives. Turture is punishment like the death penalty. That’s how they are the same. Yes, some words are rhetorical.

      That’s all.

  • thegillotine09

    As far as intellectualism goes…
    I note that as far as I know there are no liberal or conservative organizations that match, say, the philosophically libertarian (yet politically independent) Mises Institute in terms of political intellectualism, although I’ll be the first to admit I’m more than possibly wrong and if anyone can point out a good conservative or liberal intellectual organization I’ll gladly retract this statement.

    However, populism runs rampant in both the main political parties nowadays so it amazes me that either of them have the balls to call people “elite” or “anti-intellectual”.

  • Haysoos

    Speaking of what women can or can’t do with their bodies, I think they (as well as men) should be able to use their bodies for prostitution and put drugs into their bodies if they choose to so the fact that those things are currently illegal is not a very strong argument that it’s okay to regulate someone’s body in another respect. However, I also grant that the same standard that tells me that prostitution and drug use should be legal doesn’t apply to abortion because with abortion you have also account for how it affects the other life involved, and how valuable that life is. So all in all, comparing abortion to prostitution and drug use is quite the red herring.

  • David John Wellman

    Brock, first of all, I’m amused by the way you consistently put the word “intellectuals” in quote marks, and then tried to deny that you were anti-intellectual. If anything, you confirmed my prediction that, in your response essay, you would try to glorify anti-intellectualism.

    Moving on to your anti-abortion essay, you wrote, “What if tomorrow the courts made it legal to kill any infant under the age of 90 days?”

    Let’s turn that around: what if tomorrow the PEOPLE did so, via their representatives in Congress? What recourse would infants then have, if not the judiciary? You speak of the need to have the people decide these things rather than judges, but suppose, to take an extreme example, the people democratically decided that all people of a certain minority were to be executed. What recourse would that minority have, if not the judiciary? This is the very reason the judiciary exists: to make sure that laws are not only consistent with the Constitution, but with logic. They don’t always succeed at this, but they succeed more often than they fail, and their existence is necessary.

    As for Roe v. Wade, the right to privacy is implicit in a number of Constitutional provisions, and the judiciary has consistently so ruled.

    Now, you didn’t touch on what I feel is the primary question in the abortion question — and, sadly, neither did Theo, although he otherwise made good points (with a notable exception I’ll deal with elsewhere) — so I’ll put it to you here:

    Does a woman have the right to consent to pregnancy?

    If your answer is no, then you may want to seek shelter — both from people on this forum and from your ideological brethren.

    If your answer is yes, then it logically follows that a woman has the right to withhold consent to pregnancy, and to remedy a pregnancy to which does not consent via abortion. Meaning, it doesn’t matter if one hundred percent of abortions are elective; a woman has the right. I’m sure you’ll have a couple objections to this point, but this is a good starting place for the discussion.

    Finally, as to “life begins at conception,” this is simply a standard Conservative Weapon of Mass Distraction. Just as “guns don’t kill people, people do” is meant to distract the focus away from the fact that guns make it easier and personal ownership is not constitutionally guaranteed, “life begins at conception” is designed to distract the focus away from the fact that personhood does not.

    • Haysoos

      Though I agree with your distinction between life and personhood, I do not agree with your extrapolations as to the positions that logically follow from believing that a woman does or does not have the right to consent to a pregnancy. I think you need to recognize the distinction between being impregnated and enduring a pregnancy.

      Your assessment of the answer “no” is correct. It is shameful to believe that there is any circumstance where it’s acceptable for a woman to be impregnated without her consent.

      However, you say that if you believe she does have to give consent, then she can withhold consent and that means she can terminate a pregnancy. However, assuming the pregnancy resulted from consensual sex, then one could argue that she consented to the risk of pregnancy already. Then one might say, she consented to being impregnated, but that she doesn’t have the right to not endure a pregnancy. If she does not want to be pregnant, the only way to do that is to exercise her right not to be impregnated. Obviously this argument does not apply to rape victims.

      I don’t personally believe that the only way a woman should be able to refuse consent to being pregnant is to refuse to be impregnated, I’m just pointing out what I perceive to be a shortcoming of your argument.

      • David John Wellman

        When I say that a woman has the right to consent to pregnancy, I mean that she has both the right to consent to be impregnated and the right to consent to be in a pregnant condition at a given moment. The latter, when separated from the former, may strike some as controversial, but we must hold it because the converse is morally reprehensible.

        Performing action X is tantamount to consenting to Y only if you are aware that X causes Y, which in turn necessitates that X is a necessary condition of Y. Consensual sex is not a necessary condition for pregnancy in this day and age (nor, according to fundamentalists, two thousand years ago), nor is it sufficient for pregnancy — in fact, the vast majority of sexual encounters, even unprotected, do not result in pregnancy. Certainly sex carries a risk of pregnancy, just as boarding an airplane carries a risk of being hijacked — but airplane passengers do not consent to being hijacked by the act of boarding.

        • Haysoos

          I’m not so sure that it’s morally reprehensible to deny the right to consent to being pregnant if the right to consent to being impregnated was not denied.

          I think you have it backwards. It’s not if X is a necessary condition of Y, it’s if Y is a necessary result of X. If consensual sex resulted in pregnancy 100% of the time, and everyone knew this, then having sex would be the same as consenting to pregnancy, even if there were also other ways to cause pregnancy.

          I think this brings up the question, though, of how big a risk of something does there have to be before someone is considering at least partially responsible for their fate if something happens to them. Certainly there is a level of risk, like with hard drug use and jumping off mountains in wing suits where we do say that even if the person is not “consenting” to death or whatever it is, that they are accepting responsibility if something does happen. Getting on an airplane does not have a high enough risk that the same holds. So some level of risk between getting on an airplane and using heroin is the cutoff for where it’s acceptable to hold the victim at least partially responsible for their fate. The question then is if consensual sex is at that level or not.

          • David John Wellman

            Consider the act of intercourse. A woman initially gives consent to be penetrated, but then, after they have been at it for a time, withdraws her consent and attempts to remedy the situation by asking the man to withdraw. He doesn’t. Whether the man would be in legal trouble for this depends, sadly, on the local laws — but I think a case can easily be made that, morally, he is in the wrong. Thus, a woman has the right both to consent to being penetrated and to consent to having the man inside her, and can withdraw this consent when she chooses.

            So it is with pregnancy.

            There is one disanalogy that anti-choicers might propose (and make no mistake: anti-choice is what Brock is, despite that attempt at rhetorical bait-and-switch), and that is the issue of opposing values. In the case of sex, all that weighs against the woman’s right to consent to having the man inside her is the man’s right, if it exists, to not suffer from “blue balls.” With pregnancy, what weighs against the woman’s right to consent to pregnancy is the right of the embryo or fetus to live.

            My position is that, until a certain point in its development, the embryo or fetus HAS no such right. I’ll be addressing this in a forthcoming post.

            As for the remainder of your post, “X is a necessary condition of Y” means the same as “Y is a necessary result of X” — I was using the word “condition in a causal sense. So one might argue that you are correct, that if consensual sex invariably results in pregnancy, it would be tantamount to consent. But it doesn’t. Nor is sex sufficient, by itself, to cause pregnancy.

            Risk acceptance is not consent. The fatality rate for BASE jumpers is about 1 in 500, and BASE jumpers know it, but they do not consent to death when they do it, even if we regard the activity as stupid and irresponsible.

          • Haysoos

            “My position is that, until a certain point in its development, the embryo or fetus HAS no such right. I’ll be addressing this in a forthcoming post.” That’s what I think too, and that to me is the issue at the heart of whether abortion should be allowable or not, not whether the woman’s right overrides it. When a human life is involved, that is what can trump individual rights.

            I also definitely agree that it is a woman’s right, as well as a man’s, of course, to withdraw consent during sexual intercourse. I don’t see why that necessitates that the same should hold for pregnancy. There are situations where a doctor can refuse to give a certain elective surgery to a patient, but it is not that doctor’s right to stop in the middle of a procedure.

            It doesn’t equal consent, no, but with accepting risk comes accepting the responsibility that comes in the event that the risk is realized. I’m not going to attempt to answer this question, but I believe there is a legitimate question of “should we consider pregnancy to be a responsibility that a woman has accepted by engaging in consensual sex?” I believe that before the fetus has attained personhood, according to how the word “personhood” has been used by many commenters, abortion doesn’t harm a life I consider valuable, so this question is a non-issue, but after that point, then we have to weigh the woman’s right to consent against the life of what is considered a person by whatever definition we’re applying. I think whether one considers the right to consent to pregnancy voided should depend on how one answers that question. It’s just not often that people take risks that might force them to make a decision regarding someone else’s life, so it’s hard to compare this to other situations.

          • David John Wellman

            Unless by “responsibility” you mean something that does not equal or entail “act of giving consent,” the question is the same as that of consent for purposes of the present discussion.

            Whether a doctor has the right to stop the abortion in the middle of the procedure — I assume you mean electively, and not for medical reasons — is an interesting question. One could argue that the doctor has made an obligation to the patient prior to the procedure, and that he has an ethical responsibility to follow through on that obligation. One could also argue that the doctor does have every right to elect to abort the procedure for personal reasons, provided that by doing so he does not compromise the woman’s health. I would tend toward the former argument, one reason being that even the beginning of surgery makes serious physiological changes to the woman’s body — just as pregnancy does — to which the woman consented only with the understanding that the abortion would be carried out. Consent given under false pretenses isn’t consent.

          • thegillotine09

            How would you define a “person”?

          • thegillotine09

            Never mind I just found your definition.

    • Thereprieve

      Somehow David, I think you and I should have a discussion on this. But I would certainly love to listen to some other people object to you apart from myself. You keep dangling the worms and I seem to be the only one nibbling. Curious?

      With that in mind, I’ll simply respond to your last statement. I wonder why the founders of this country, the guys who wrote the Declaration of Independence, found it necessary to include the “right to life” along with liberty and the pursuit of happiness as basic, fundamental, and inalienable rights. At no point was it qualified with words that resembled “as long as it meets certain undefinable personhood requirements”.

      If “Life begins at conception” is the conservative WMD, then “personhood” is the dirty bomb constructed solely to obscure from who is afforded those inalienable rights. It can be practically argued that since all men are “created” equal, then all rights dervied therefrom are attributed at the moment of creation.

      • David John Wellman

        Regarding your second paragraph, first of all, the Declaration is not a legal document; second, it’s rather silly to believe that the Founders meant anything other than persons.

        Regarding your third paragraph, I simply have no idea what you mean with your “dirty bomb” remark. But again, the Declaration is not a legal document.

        • Thecoachjason

          I completely understand that the purpose of the Declaration of Independence was to make a moral case for dissolving the legal ties between the colonies and Great Britain. Once that goal was achieved, the official role of the Declaration was obviously finished.
          BUT that document did express the will of the same people who wrote the Constitution. Thus, it provides knowledge about their intent as to what sort of government we should have, what kind of laws should preside over the people, and what fundamental rights our new government would not be allowed to revoke under any circumstance.
          As it states, “whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends (life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness), it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it (it being the government)”. A strong case could be made for the prescedent set by the declaration of independence to replace our government, one that has become destructive to life itself. Again, I see no mention of “personhood” in that document or any other founding document, or in the few individual states I’ve examined.. Is there a specific court case that you want to argue that makes “personhood” relevant or is this your personal opinion that personhood makes a difference?
          If you want to talk about specifics that have been scientifically argued in court, I’d start with Dr. LeJeune in the Tennessee case where a husband was suing his ex-wife for custody of their frozen embryos. Dr. Lejeune had an M.D. from the University of Paris, and a Ph.D. in genetics at the Sorbonne, Faculty of Science. During his research he discovered the first chromosomal diseases in man, one being Down’s Syndrome. Invited to the U.S., he gave the first course of human genetics at the California Institute of Technology. He received the Kennedy Prize from the late President and the highest award in genetics, The William Allen Memorial Award. Among the many international science and medical societies Dr. Lejeune is a member of The Pontifical Academy of Science, Vatican, and the French Academy of Moral and Political Science. These organizations have provided advice to world leaders on matters such as the danger of the use of atomic energy. Dr. Lejeune’s credentials go on, but the point is, he was possibly the most qualified scientist at the time (1989) to offer expert testimony. And the testimony was long and covered most of the entire process of how DNA strands combine, and so on. But the most interesting words of his testimony, IMO, “I would say that science has a very simple conception of man; as soon as he has been conceived, a man is a man.”
          I say personhood is a “dirty bomb” because it doesn’t appear relevant to any current scientific, religious, or philosophical argument for or against abortion. But perhaps I should have used th ecorrect terminology: red herring.

          • Bjørn

            Your appeal to the Declaration is negated by the fact that it is not a legal document. It could have been written as the express will of the founders that abortion be illegal, it would STILL not carry any weight in the US today, unless it was written into the Constitution or law. It has not, so therefore it is an empty appeal, and always will be.

            The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (where the US is a signatory) on the other hand, does shine some light on the issue: “All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights”.

            It would seem that human beings must be born in order to be equal in rights…
            Which is not to suggest that it’s ok to terminate a pregnancy up to the time of birth, merely that rights are not awarded at conception.

          • Thereprieve

            I would suggest you keep reading past article one, my friend, as article 2 states that “everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind…”. You placed the distinction of “being born” and that is explicitly contradictory to article 2.

          • Bjørn

            Article 2 refers to discrimination with regards to human rights, not the definition of what constitutes a person. That’s what Article 1 does, which is why I referred to it rather than Article 2. “Everyone” (art2) is merely a pointer to “All human beings born” (art1) not an abrogation of it.

            “the Declaration has been used historically to set legal prescedent. Are you the least bit familiar with the Amistad?”
            Only through the movie I’m afraid. Still, all that it shows is that the Decleration may be used to set legal prescedent. You would still have to point to a legal prescedent in the case of abortion that awards the “right of life” to a recently concieved embryo. So once again, your appeal to the Decleration comes back empty.

          • Thereprieve

            Well now you’re splitting hairs, so I’ll return the favor. Article 1 says that “all human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights”. But it makes no distinction that a person is not human, is not free, and is not equal in dignity or rights. Much the same as the Declaration of Independence says that all “men” are created equal. It gives no distinction to women so are women no equal? Of course they are.

            And your personhood argument(s) will inevitably fail because, throught the supreme court, ‘personhood’ has already been granted to entities that are not even human. It stands to reason that ‘personhood’ woud allow rights to a ‘fetus’ as well.

          • Thereprieve

            Sorry, I didn’t complete this sentence:
            “But it makes no distinction that a person is not human, is not free, and is not equal in dignity or rights.”

            It should read:
            But it makes no distinction that a person is not human, is not free, and is not equal in dignity or rights if they have not yet been born.

          • Bjørn

            A fetus is human, as defined by feticide laws. Btw those laws explicitly mentions that they cannot be used to presecute those who wish to take, or perform an abortion.

            A fetus is certainly not free, and by that I mean that it is for a stage in it’s development a parasite. Parasites are not “free” unless they are capable of survival independant of a host. Although, at this point that’s just semantics on my part…

            But in any case. I’ll concede that the UDHR doesn’t provide a reason to award rights at birth, if you in turn concede that the Decleration doesn’t provide a justification for awarding rights at conception.

          • David John Wellman

            Why would the concept of corporate personhood — I assume that’s what you’re referring to — entail the concept of fetal personhood?

          • David John Wellman

            Also, while I know that there are many rulings that establish that corporations enjoy many of the same rights that persons do (as well as some rights that they don’t, such as the ability to buy and sell other corporations), I’m not aware of any Supreme Court ruling that actually and unequivocally grants personhood to corporations. Could you help me out there?

          • Thereprieve

            Whether or not it is a legal document is irrelevant to any point I have made. But if the legality of the document is all that concers you, I would hope that your understanding of legal history includes the fact that the Declaration has been used historically to set legal prescedent. Are you the least bit familiar with the Amistad?

          • David John Wellman

            While the Declaration was cited and quoted by the lawyers in the Amistad case, it is nowhere mentioned in the Supreme Court decision.

          • David John Wellman

            Since you have such a reverence for the Founders, consider this:

            “Laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind… as that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, institutions must advance also, to keep pace with the times…. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain forever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.”

            –Thomas Jefferson

            If you want to create new law, well, that’s what your representatives in Congress are there for. But if you want to interpret laws according to the Founders’ intent, then you must do so in the way that the Founders intended: via the rulings of the Supreme Court.

            The definition of a person is a philosophical question, not a scientific one. Therefore, despite his credentials and his disclaimer to the contrary, Jerome Lejeune could not possibly have been speaking on behalf of the body of science — unless by “man” he merely meant “male human organism.”

  • Haysoos

    “To do so would leave them challenged to find a bloodthirsty tyrant of the 20th century not supported, aided and beloved by the leading “intellectuals” of the time.”
    Pol Pot was so against intellectualism that he murdered people who wore glasses because I guess only intellectuals could understand how to use such a complicated device. So there’s that.

    Though Brock says he’s not against intellectuals, statements like the one above certainly display an extreme anti-intellectualism. I think it is not a feature of Conservatism to be anti-intellectual, but anti-intellectualism is a political strategy currently being used by Conservatives and in particular by the Tea Party. Obama comes off as being very intellectual, and so in response, many who are against Obama use this against him by doing what Brock did in his response essay. They paint intellectuals as being cold and theoretical, and thus removed from the general society, though most don’t go as far as Brock did by claiming that almost every murderous dictator of the 20th century was beloved by the intellectuals of the time. Then they say that the real America is made up of the type of people intellectuals look down their nose at.

  • David John Wellman

    There are two concepts that, I believe, are central to the abortion issue. One of them, the issue of consent, I have brought up elsewhere — and I am still awaiting Brock’s response to that post. In this post, I will briefly discuss the issue of personhood.

    Jay (thereprieve) dismissed my bringing this up in a way that was unclear to me, but in context I took him to be accusing me of a red herring. Quite the contrary. The concept of personhood is critical because persons, as opposed to merely human beings, are what we value. What’s the difference? Imagine a man whose brain has been surgically removed and destroyed, and whose body is being kept alive by mechanical means. This is a living human being, but not a person, and no general ethical obligation exists to keep him alive.

    So what defines a person? One proposed definition is an organism who is able to perform personal acts — but this would exclude the comatose, and possibly infants as well, and so this may not do.

    A better definition is an organism which possesses an individual personality. Infants do have established personality traits even at birth, and the comatose have them as well.

    We know from science that personality traits are the result of the cerebral cortex. We also know from science that the cerebral cortex develops in the fetus between the 20th and 24th week of gestation.

    Prior to the 20th week, no cerebral cortex exists, and thus no person can exist. Thus, no person is killed in an abortion prior to the 20th week of gestation. (I will not defend the morality of elective abortions after the 20th week — no ethical doctor will perform them that late anyway.)

    • Thereprieve

      My apologies, I didn’t see this post before I posted my response below.

      Am I understanding you correctly that your position has nothing to do with a woman’s right to chose, or her right(s) to her own body, etc, etc.?

      Just a few quick questions about this post. Should all further research into the repair of the cerebral cortex or all 4 brain lobes stop immediately? Prior to the 20th week, much of the cerebral cortex has formed, it’s just not complete until about the 20th week. So you’re basically stating that a person with brain damage, or a “non-fully existing cerebral cortex” is not a person, why do we have the ethical standard to keep them alive? People have survived without entire lobes of their brain in tact. Are they not “persons” because they do not have a full cortex?

      • Bjørn

        I think David’s angle is that fetuses are not persons, hence they do not have the “right to life”, and because of this there is nothing to conflict with or constrict a women’s right to self-determination when it comes to her own body.

        As for your questions concerning the cerebral cortex. I think a more useful definition of personhood would have to include the ability to carry on living outside the womb (viability in other words). In this case fetuses with a damaged cortex are persons as long as they can survive independently of the womb.

        Second, David said “Prior to the 20th week, no cerebral cortex exists, and thus no person can exist”. If he had said “Prior to the 20th week, a 100% fully functional cerebral cortex doesn’t exists, and thus no person can exist” *then* your other criticism would have a point. Except he didn’t say that, and I think the distinction between the two cases is quite clear.

        • Thereprieve

          Is healthcare a human right?

          • thegillotine09

            “Is healthcare a human right”
            Depends on what you mean by a right. If you mean a right inherent to each person then I think the answer is obviously no. Healthcare is a service provided by people. If you claim you have an inherent right to healthcare you are by definition saying you have an inherent right to force others to provide you with a service (ie slavery). However a right is often used in terms of “something the government owes you” sort of in terms of a contract, where you are owed a service due to your citizenship. An analogy would be that a member of a bowling team has a right to part of the team’s pizza if that is part of the agreement between the other members. In that case it would depend on the values of the group involved.

          • Thereprieve

            Let me try this another way…

            You come home from work and a person is laying unconscious on your floor. He appears to have recently stopped breathing and his heartbeat is faint. At a quick glance, you determine he was there to rob you and apparently fell and hit his head. Do you have the responsibility to help him? If you don’t will you be charged with a “good samaritan” crime? Not should you be, would or could you be?

          • David John Wellman

            If you *will* be charged with a good Samaritan crime, then you do have a legal responsibility to help him. This is a different question from whether you have a moral responsibility to help him. My inclination is to say yes, but I’m willing to hear arguments for the negative.

          • Thereprieve

            So then it stands to reason that a woman submitting to an abortion in an area that has “good samaritan” laws would presumably be guilty of a crime?

            I am inclined to agree that there’s a moral responsibility to help. I would argue that everyone that is capable, at any time, that sees a weaker or incapacitated being in peril has the moral obligation to help.

            If you haven’t already, check you youtube om inbox.

          • David John Wellman

            Only if the fetus, in whatever stage of development it happens to be in, enjoys the full legal protections of human persons in whatever jurisdiction it happens to be in. If that’s the case, and if the fetus is less than 20 weeks old, then the laws of that place are in drastic need of revision.

          • Bjørn

            “Is healthcare a human right? ”
            No.
            Although, denying you access to healthcare when your life depemds on it could conflict with your right to life. However, you still would have no “right” to healthcare, in the same sense as a right to life and liberty.

          • David John Wellman

            Yes.

          • Thereprieve

            Well I got two conflicting answers, one affirmative and one negative each from a different liberal. Notice that the question wasn’t qualified with “personhood”. A fetus is still a human by definition. Therefore a mother that denies her child healthcare is guilty of another crime. And feeds directly into the already full belly of an abortion being immoral.

          • David John Wellman

            I’m generally unimpressed with clever wordplay — what Brock might call “gotchas” — in serious discussions like this. When the phrase “human rights” appears in a discussion, I assume that this means rights which apply universally to human persons.

      • David John Wellman

        My position is no person’s death arises from abortion prior to the 20th week *and* that the rights of the organism, whatever its status, must be balanced against the woman’s right to consent to pregnancy — in which the rights of choice and control over her own body are quite implicit.

        People who have brain damage, up to and including entire lobes of the brain or even part of the cerebral cortex being missing, can still exhibit personality traits. A person who does not have a cerebral cortex cannot. An adult human who was missing his entire cerebral cortex would be considered brain dead.

        • Thereprieve

          Isn’t the termination of life a death? So violent death is okay with you as long as it’s convenient for a specific party and that the live being is not a person.

          There are personality traits exhibited from very early on in pregnancy. In studies of twins, one will often be more active or more of an eater while the other shy or a docile. These personality traits can exhibit themselves shortly after the heart starts beating.

          I can find nothing that says a fully formed cerebral cortex is essential to a personality. It plays a role but it sounds similar to saying that if you haven’t formed fingernails then you don’t have functioning fingers.

          • David John Wellman

            I didn’t say it was okay with me. I said that it didn’t result in the death of a person. But since you pose the question, yes, elective abortions are okay with me, one reason being that it doesn’t result in the death of a person — although, for reasons having to do with the mother’s health as well as our own human nature, I’d prefer that the procedure be carried out carefully rather than violently.

            I’m not familiar with the studies you mention — and an unable to familiarize myself since you did not source them — but if those characteristics were exhibited before the formation of a properly functioning cerebral cortex, then we must ask whether they are results of personhood or of biological impulses in a non-sentient organism. To make a case for the latter, I can point out what the cerebral cortex is, what it does, and that it is not present in fetuses of that size. I can think of no way to make a case for the former, and would chalk it up to our own tendency to anthropomorphize.

            In response to your third paragraph, I can only suggest you read more about the cerebral cortex.

    • thegillotine09

      Your definition of a person (an organism that possesses an individual personality) would include many animals. Do you believe they should be considered legal ‘persons’?

      • Bjørn

        I think the way rights are afforded (and this is my understanding of it) illustrates a reply to your question. Rights (currently) comes down to human individuals being afforded human rights, as well as legal rights, which gives you the status of “legal persons”. Under that definition animals are not afforded “personhood”, since they are not human individuals.

      • David John Wellman

        You have a point. I was originally going to define a person as one who possesses an individual *human* personality, but it occurred to me that this would disqualify extraterrestrial persons. We can go back to that definition for purposes of this discussion, or we can say that individual personality is necessary, but not sufficient, for personhood.

        • Bjørn

          What about an alien hive mind? ;)

          Joke aside, I think you’re working from the right angle there: “individual personality is necessary, but not sufficient, for personhood.”
          Add in viability and we’re probably pretty close. The problem with these arguments is that they tend to spiral into a philosophical debate or animal rights really quickly and never recover. The easiest thing is to leave potential extraterrestrials out of the equation and simply define what rights we as humans recognise that we have. The minute we actually meet Spock it should be simple to recognise that he too has these rights. The bugs from Starship Troopers however. Tricker case.

  • Balanceseeker

    I found it interesting that Brock focused entirely upon the issue of abortion, while Theo seemed to diversify the topic and cover the end of life issues as well. Regardless, I think Theo, perhaps unwittingly, highlights a major point, “Liberalism is opposed to government interference in private lives.” Of course, this is similar to the claim that Conservatives, and Brock specifically, makes. So, where is the divide? Why do both sides fall on opposite sides of issues? I believe I mentioned it previously, but I think the divide is a matter of definition – the definition of the term “private lives.” To argue that government should play no role in dictating to the public about what its citizens ought to do, it seems, one must first define the decision as a private decision of the public, infringing upon liberty. Any who accept such a proposition will be opposed to government being involved in the activity.

    As such, I find it odd that Brock sees no use for the concept of privacy in The Liberty clause and the Fourth Amendment of the constitution. Indeed, I find the quotation of Robert Bork, one of the most famously publicly rejected judges in modern history, to be really amazing. To suggest that one could have liberty without privacy is simply laughable. How much liberty does a country have when all activity is monitored by the government? Very little, I would argue, and I doubt Brock would disagree. Indeed, when Brock complains about “big government” getting in the way of companies or individuals in the exercise of their rights, he is making an argument regarding the privacy of such decisions – that such actions exist within one’s sphere of private life.

    Also, the concept of Pro-Choice to Brock is akin to Ford’s idea of choice of car colors – “You can have any color car you want, as long as you want black.” I might wonder if Brock would accept as constitutional a provision stating, “Citizens can worship any god they wish, provided they wish to worship Zeus.” After all, such a provision, in Brock’s model, does not in any way impede upon people making a choice regarding religion. It only says that they only viable choice is worshiping Zeus, correct?

    Finally, Brock lost some serious credibility with this statement: “Life begins at conception. It has never been proven otherwise.” That is a logical fallacy called burden shifting. Just because something has not been proven false does not make it true. Russel’s Teapot is the classic example of this absurd line of reasoning. Certainly, Theo frames it best when he suggests that any claim as to when life begins independently from the mother must be backed up with a compelling argument.

    There are more ideas I wish to bring to this discussion, but I have to get to work.

    • MrJmm999

      Very good points. However, the word “liberty” does not appear in the 4th Amendment. It’s in the 5th Amendment. Otherwise, outstanding.
      I find it disturbing that a small government Conservative like Brock sees absolutely NO problem with dictacting (as a man no less) what a woman can do with her own body. (Yeah..it’s a bit of rhetoric…sue me) Addititionally, Brock is so absolutely misinformed that he appears to think that the only “rights” someone has are the ones specifically mentioned in the Constitution. I asked Brock what he would do if a state outlawed ALL marriage or took over the parents job/right of raising ALL children. I don’t see marriage and raising children specifically mentioned in the Constitution either. I’m guessing he would be opposed to such laws.

      • Balanceseeker

        I apologize if I gave the impression I thought the Liberty Clause was in the Fourth Amendment when I said “The Liberty clause and the Fourth Amendment.” I had intended to convey the concept of privacy to be found in multiple locations within the Constitution.

  • MrJmm999

    Brock, as you seem to be doing another hit and run (making your statment and not answering questions posed to you)..i will open this up to your fellow conservatives here. (<——- Yes…it was a cheap shot….but justified since you agreed to be part of the discussion…yet have nearly left all questions posed to you unanswered)

    In his essay, Brock claims that no right of privacy exisists. Brock, do you think that ONLY the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights exist? . Based on studies (made up here for my purposes) marriage is linked to certain behaviors that are harmful to society. Based on these studies, every state enacts legislation that outlaws marriage. (Note: you may still live together..but get no other benefits of marriage and may not claim the status of being "married"). Do you challenge these laws? On what gounds? Where is the right to get married in the Constituion?

    Additionally, further studies are done that show that the state can do a MUCH better job raising children than parents can. (Again, made up study for our purposes). In reaaction to this studies, every state enacts legislation that puts all authority for decision making up to "professionals" of the State. The State will decide what type of education the child gets, what they eat and while not promoting or prohibiting religious teachings…is absolutely silent on the issue of religion when "raising" these children. (No Church unless the child says they want to attend) For our purposes, imagine a new industry of Foster homes that "professionally" raise children. Where do you find the "right" to raise your children in the Constitution?

    Please don't dodge the question by falling back on "this is a state issue and we are discussing the US Constitution). Anyone with ANY actual legal knowledge knows that these ARE indeed US Constitutional issues and, if not corrected by the State courts, would surely end up at the US Supreme Court.

    Brock, again, feels perfectly comfortable making assertions and then seems absolutely unwilling to defend his assertions when questioned. I'm sorry but this just smacks of someone who has not thought through his argument. It is apparent to me that Brock has mistaken rhetoric for an actual argument and when called on it, is simply unable to defend his position.

  • http://twitter.com/THEAtheistAnti The Atheist Antidote

    I made a video on the subject of abortion.
    Abortion & Slavery

    Thoughts????

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xJ-jRxmB8Q

    • David John Wellman

      If that video addressed any of the points that I made in this thread, I didn’t see it.

    • theowarner

      I would say, like most of your videos, that it is largely in consistent.

      You seem to spend a great deal of time saying that there certain moral questions which should not be left up to the democratic process.

      You are also of the opinion that judges should not be making moral decisions, that the morality of abortion should be left to the voters.

      Your position is not clear.

  • http://twitter.com/THEAtheistAnti The Atheist Antidote

    It is a cosmic injustice to allow a murderer to keep his life. Killing murderers is society’s only way to teach how terrible murder is. The only real way a society can express its revulsion at any criminal behavior is through the punishment it metes out. If murderers all got 10 years in prison and thieves all got 20 years in prison, that would be society’s way of saying that thievery is worse than murder. A society that kills murderers is saying that murder is more heinous a crime than a society that keeps all its murderers alive. It can, if widely enacted, deter some murders. Though I regard this as a less important argument than the first two, there is no doubt that it is true. Everyone acknowledges that punishments can deter all other crimes — why wouldn’t capital punishment deter some murders? Is murder the only crime unaffected by punishment?
    ~DP

    • thegillotine09

      “It is cosmic injustice to allow a murderer to keep his life”.

      …why? You need to explain what your definition of cosmic justice is. Is it “an eye for an eye” or something?

      “Killing murderers is society’s only way to teach how terrible murder is.”

      I’m pretty sure we can think of better and more creative ways of doing so since killing murderers has done nothing to teach society how terrible murder is.

      “The only real way a society can express its revulsion at any criminal behavior is through the punishment it metes out.”

      You should open your mind a bit. I think a better way to express revulsion would be to attempt to prevent murders or to help the victims of murder.

      “A society that kills murderers is saying that murder is more heinous a crime than a society that keeps all its murderers alive.”

      Why is killing someone worse than putting them in prison for the rest of their lives?

      “It can, if widely enacted, deter some murders.”

      By all studies capital punishment does not work as a deterrent. Instead of saying “there is no doubt that it is true” you need to show statistics showing a positive correlation.

      “why wouldn’t capital punishment deter some murders?”

      Does the man who comes home to find his wife in bed with another man think about the punishment before he pulls out a gun? Does the psychopath killing hitchhikers care about the punishment? Does the difference between life imprisonment and a painless death affect the decisions of those driven by intense emotion or psychological disorder?

    • MrJmm999

      “It can, if widely enacted, deter some murders”

      Nice assertion. Unfortunatly, as the Statistics that Theo provided earlier pointed out…this simply is not the case.

      Brock, again you show that you have not thought this issue through. You begin by saying the reason we use the death penelty is for vengence. You said “The only real way a society can express its revulsion at any criminal behavior is through the punishment it metes out.”

      Yet 2 sentences later, you are back to the deterence even though it has been shown time and time again that it is NOT a deterent. You said “”Everyone acknowledges that punishments can deter all other crimes — why wouldn’t capital punishment deter some murders?”

      Additionally, the topic is the death penelty…not punishment in general. You are trying to justify why the death penelty should be used…not why we should punish people.

      Brock, you have fallen into a very common problem. You think that the murderer thinks like you do. The possibility of death would indeed deter YOU from committing murder. However, most murderers simply do not think like you. Do you REALLY think that a possible death would deter the drug dealer who kills? These men live every day of their lives under a death sentence. Death doesn’t scare them like it scares you and I . You and I can understand something like stealing (You yourself stole others work and passed it off as your own). However, to kill..and actually kill often or maliciously enough to have the death penelty as an option simply takes a different mindset than you or I have. THIS is why the death penenlty has been show to NOT be a deterant.
      Again, you simply have not thought your rhetoric through. You KNOW the statistics show the death penelty it’s not a deterrent. However, your intuition tells YOU that it would deter YOU. This goes back to your statement about you throwing out statistics that offend your common sense. This is a perfect example of how you allow your bias to sort through the stats you like….keep what you like and throw out the ones you don’t. I’m sure everyone is more than willing to discuss the matter if you think the statistics Theo provided are wrong. However, I think you will just assume they are wrong because they don’t comport to your worldview.

    • theowarner

      Yes, quoting Dennis Prager is all fine and good.

      But, Mr. Prager was wrong then and is still wrong now.

      1) “It is a cosmic injustice to allow a murderer to keep his life.”

      How can I refute this? Well, let’s see… “It is NOT a cosmic injustice to allow a murderer to keep his life.” There. That wasn’t that hard. And best of all, I don’t have to substantiate my claim at all because neither did Mr. Prager. This is a very easy game!

      2) “Killing murderers is society’s only way to teach how terrible murder is. The only real way a society can express its revulsion at any criminal behavior is through the punishment it metes out. If murderers all got 10 years in prison and thieves all got 20 years in prison, that would be society’s way of saying that thievery is worse than murder. A society that kills murderers is saying that murder is more heinous a crime than a society that keeps all its murderers alive.”

      Surely Mr. Prager recognizes that there are other ways to teach how terrible murder is. For example, talking about the suffering of losing a lost one teaches us about how terrible murder is. Teaching that murder is terrible, actually, strikes me as one of the simplest things to teacher. I can think of tons of what to teach that murder is terrible and my classroom won’t have a body count of its own.

      “The only way to express its revulsion…” Really? Reall, Mr. Prager? Can’t we write a poem? or paint a painting? Or make a movie? or build moments? or have national observances? Killing is the ONLY way?

      And as for this bit about measuring a society’s dislike of a crime but the intensity of the punishment it dolls for the crime… are we then to assume that societies that execute adulterers are simply “saying that [adultery] is more heinous”? Or is there something to be said “saying” how heinous a crime in a way that is constrained by something like… morality?

      3) “It can, if widely enacted, deter some murders. Though I regard this as a less important argument than the first two, there is no doubt that it is true. Everyone acknowledges that punishments can deter all other crimes — why wouldn’t capital punishment deter some murders? Is murder the only crime unaffected by punishment?”

      Well… no. The death penalty is not a deterrent. No matter how we parse in our heads, the facts bear witness. It does not deter criminals.

      Brock… why don’t you say what YOU think… not what other people think.

    • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

      Deterrence has been long known not to be accomplished by the death penalty. It is essentially more for vengeance for the survivors of the victim. I really don’t have a problem with this in theory, only if there is a way to absolutely know someone is guilty, but since the death penalty is so permanent, and there is no way to absolutely know, I find it too big of a problem when a single innocent person might be put to death.

      Top that off with the fact that people with money get a better defense than those without. It means that people would be disproportionately put to death.

      None of this is a good idea, and all of it is irreversible.

    • Christ724

      Two wrongs don’t make a right Brock. This taught to us when we are children, it’s not that hard of a concept to grasp.

  • MrJmm999

    I’m not suggesting a rule of thumb here or actually making a point. But I do have a question that I would like someone from the Conservative side of this discussion to comment on. (Brock…don’t worry…nobody expects you to actually respond to questions at this point. We understand that your game is spouting rhetoric and then running and hiding. Yeah…it’s a cheap shot but again, it’s deserved)

    Okay, the liberals here have been vilified as being uncaring about “the child”. I got into a long discussion where I was accused of not caring about children because I did not accept the proposition that a fetus is a child. The rhetoric of “life begins at conception” has been thrown around quite a bit here. However, when you step back and look, we ALL treat the fetus differently than we do the child. When a child dies…we have a funeral to mourn the dead. This even happens with newly born babies. However, we don’t mourn the dead fetus. Where is the funeral every time there is a misscarriage. Yes, the mother and father are upset at the lost HOPE of a child and the plans they had made. However, NOBODY has a funeral for a fetus. I’m sorry, you may say “i’m sorry” or some other that you “feel their pain”…but NOBODY is absolutely devistated like they are when an actual child dies.
    We do treat a fetus and a child differently. The only time we truly consider a “fetus” as a “child” is when dealing with the rhetoric of the Abortion debate. I mean to hear you people talk about “life begins at conception”…”all life is equal”..you would think there would be funerals..wakes….and the other things that are used by people to get over their grief. We all treat a fetus and child differently….until we discuss Abortion. Personally, I think our actions speak louder than our words about such issues.

    Why is this? Please try to be honest and not pretend that they ARE treated the same way.

    (Okay…I guess i did have a point after all.)

    • Thereprieve

      If I were you, I consider myself lucky that I never had to attend the wake of a stillborn child. If I hadn’t, I too could pretend they don’t exist.

      • MrJmm999

        Are you claiming these are common? I don’t deny that this does happen occasionally. However, YOU are the one that is taking the absolutist position…..ANYTHING terminating the pregnancy after conception is murder. Most of the still borns the fetus dies late in child development where an abortion is simply unavailable to the mother.

        Additionally, are you saying these are common when a there is a stillborn birth? Are you saying there are wakes for miscarriages? Again, this is the exception and NOT the rule.

        • Thereprieve

          Funerals are not for the deceased, they are for the survivors to pay respects. An unborn child has not met anyone yet. The parents will grieve however they see fit.

          There are deaths everyday that will never result in a funeral because the deceased had no family or friends. Or the family will have a private ceremony. Or no ceremony at all, they will just gather together for a meal.

          A funeral has absolutely no bearing on whether or not a human being has rights.

          • MrJmm999

            “Funerals are not for the deceased, they are for the survivors to pay respects.”

            You are making my point for me. READ what i said again. Yes..the funeral/wake etc. is for the those that are greiving. I have been told time and time again that there is no difference between a fetus and a child. That the Pro-Choice movement makes no distinction. My point was to prove that as a society..we DO treat them differently in all aspects of life..except when it comes to the rhetoric of the Abortion debate.

            Again, why is there no funeral for the woman who has misscarried after beig 2 months pregnant? She’s 7 months from givig birth. Why IS there a funeral for the 7 month old CHILD? We do make distinctions in reality.

            I have asked this before. You see a pregnant woman at a restaurant who is driking a glass of wine. Nobody calls the cops. Nobody Calls Children’s services? Now, you see the same woman who pours a glass of wine into her 3 month old baby’s bottle and hands it to the child….everyone here calls the cops.

            Same for the pregnant woman smoking vs. the mother how puts a lit cigarette into her 4 month old kids mouth.

            We DO make distinctions between a fetus and a child. Nowhere do we treat these the same except in the rhetoric of the Abortion debate.

            Legally, we make distinctions too. Have you read the South Dakota proposed bill that is trying to make killing anyone who is trying to” kill” an unborn child Justifiable Homocide. Look at the language of the bill itself. It talks about UNBORN children. Why not just say “children” if there is no distinction. (BTW…this bill sounds WAY worse than it is. It’s unconstitutional and even the sponcors know it…and more importantly..Justifiable Homocide IS a crime.). However, you have to ask…..would attempting to kill an actual child be charged with Justifiable Homocide?

            My point is that we make legal distinctions between the fetus and the child. More importantly, our ACTIONS prove that we do make moral distinctions as well. We don’t greive the loss of a misscarried 6 week old fetus the same as we would an actual child that died. We don’t hold “mothers” to the same standards when they are pregnant as we do with her care of an actual child. Now, you may claim “but we should”. That is another discussion and i’m more than willing to have that with anyone. However, until we as a society REALLY treat the fetus as a child…stop calling a fetus a child in an obvious attempt to make an emotional plea and moralize. At best, a fetus is a potential child. I think that this potential child does deserve some protection….however, i’m not about to FORCE a mother to carry to term for a child she doesn’t want, cannot provide for, that may cause her death if carried to term etc.

            This is supposed to be an intellectual discussion. Words matter and, I’m sorry, but we should be at LEAST able to use the correct words when discussing these issues. To do otherwise is to make pleas to emotion instead of actual arguments.

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            We make laws for things we have an emotional attachment to. I personally don’t care if someone gets prosecuted for my murder, since I won’t care when I’m dead. On the other hand, the people that are left behind that have an emotional attachment to me won’t be of the same mind.

            It is known that jail and the death penalty are not deterrents against murder, or much of any other crime for that matter, so you can’t say that the penalty is enforced because of its deterrent effect.

            Is murder wrong because it harms the person being killed? Is it wrong because of the people that grieve? Is it wrong because people that murder and get away with it might murder again, or is it some other reason or some combination? Nobody addresses this issue, but ultimately it’s the issue that actually means something to this debate.

            All this back and forth about whether or not a fetus is a person is a distraction, since that doesn’t make any difference to the person that was killed. It only matters to those left behind.

          • MrJmm999

            “All this back and forth about whether or not a fetus is a person is a distraction, since that doesn’t make any difference to the person that was killed”

            I agree that calling a fetus a person IS distracting. I have pointed out that legally, socially, morally and medically we treat a fetus and a person differently. My question is….after admitting this is a distraction….why do you then go on to imply that abortion is killing a person? I’m not being snarky here? I am truly curious as to why you admitted it was a distraction….and then continued on with the “abortion is killing a person” rhetoric.

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            It doesn’t matter if it is a person or not. If I imply it is a person, that is because I liken it to any other person that we do consider a person when they are killed.

            I can liken it as such because it’s not, at the point of death, a matter of protecting a person or making the former person whole. Instead, it is a matter of making the loved ones of that former person whole by offering them vengeance in the prosecution of the murderer. The reality is though, it is not done in the name of those other people, it is essentially done in the name of the deceased.

            The way our laws are set up, laws against murder are protections of the person prospectively being killed. There is a bit of a disconnect in our laws at this point, since there is no other law that I can think of that protects a person when they are no longer a person, which brings up an interesting question in itself. If it doesn’t matter if a person is actually a person after they are dead, why does it matter if a person is a person prior to their death when it comes to murder? It seems that it’s rather arbitrary.

            The fact is, many states have laws that make it a crime (murder) to kill an unborn child, and it doesn’t matter what the viability of that child was prior to being terminated. Obviously these laws are against people other than the mother, but I am curious why that matters. In this case, it is conceivable that a fetus can be protected against murder as long as it is killed by someone other than the mother, but it sure seems like it should be illegal to treat similarly situated persons dissimilarly.

          • MrJmm999

            “It doesn’t matter if it is a person or not.”

            Yet you are simply unable to call a fetus a fetus and insist on calling a fetus a person. You KNOW you are doint this for an emotonal plea. If it doesn’t matter…..WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO CALL A FETUS A PERSON? The intellecxtual dishonesty is astounding.

            “If I imply it is a person, that is because I liken it to any other person that we do consider a person when they are killed”

            No..you don’t “imply” it’s a person…you specificially STATE time and time and time again that it’s a person. I have brought up that ONLY in the abortion debate does ANYONE treat a fetus like a person. Don’t back down and say you “imply” it….own it. You are simply unable to engage in an intelligent conversation about this without making appeals to emotion.

            “I can liken it as such because it’s not, at the point of death, a matter of protecting a person or making the former person whole. Instead, it is a matter of making the loved ones of that former person whole by offering them vengeance in the prosecution of the murderer. The reality is though, it is not done in the name of those other people, it is essentially done in the name of the deceased”

            I have NO clue what you are trying to say here.

            “The way our laws are set up, laws against murder are protections of the person prospectively being killed”

            Do you have any authority for this? Honetly, I went to law school and NEVER heard ANYONE say this. I’m really trying not to be mean here but you really don’t have a clue what you are talking about with regards to legal issues…why we have laws. I have already had to explain abortion laws to you on 2 separate issues and you simply change topics and keep plugging away.

            “The fact is, many states have laws that make it a crime (murder) to kill an unborn child, and it doesn’t matter what the viability of that child was prior to being terminated.”

            Maybe you could tell me all the states that claim it is First Degree MURDER to “kill” an unborn child regardless of viability? Note..YOU said murder. You said “many”….now let’s just find out HOW many. I’m guessing you are talking about FIRST degree murder. I think as you go along and study this, if you do, that the ACTUAL crme that the defendant is chagred with is not full blown first degree murder….but a lower class of homocide. A few states like Texas have actually enacted 1st degree murder for this. However, let’s take a legal look at this shall we? A man murders a woman who was 3 weeks pregnant and ends up also killing the fetus/embroy. The man had no clue the woman was pregnant. (Actually, the woman probably didn’t know either) Can you tell me how the defendant could have POSSIBLY killed the baby with malice aforethought. (a basic requirement for ALL 1st Degree Murder cases) In other words…how could the man form the requisite mental state to killl something he had no clue existed? If you are NORMALLY charged with 2 counts of murder for killing two separate people, you are required to show the defendant had malice to kill BOTH victims. How is that EVER going to work if the defendant had no clue the woman was pregnant? Now, the man could be charged with “wrecklessly or negligently killing”…but for malice you not only MUST have intent…but that intent must be malicious.

            Now, many states do make it a homocide crime to kill an unborn child. However, the “crime” usually falls short of the 1st Degree Murder that is charged in when a child/person/adult is killed.

            Additionally, are you aware that the legislation you speak of was lobbied for by Anti-Abortion groups?. Strange that they would worry about this…when they are REALLY worried about actual abortions. It’s almost like they wanted to give people like you SOME backing regarding treating them the same. (Which the law doesn’t).

            Now, i never did hear your answers regarding funerals for 6 week old miscarried fetuses, or mother’s having a glass of wine durning dinner….or smoking durning pregnancy? I do remember you changing subjects though

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            I hate three mile long comment replies. I’ll deal with a few points, but I hope I’m not expected to make a three mile long, comprehensive response.

            I’ll deal with a couple of the final ones first. Funerals for 6 week old miscarried fetuses are not relevant. If you don’t think that having a miscarriage is a big deal, I guess you haven’t been through a situation where you were expecting a child and it was miscarried. I have, and although I guess it can depend on the person, it hit me and my wife at the time rather hard. The fact that there is little to nothing to see at that point could have something to do with it.

            I think all your other questions in this area are an attempt to get things distracted. There certainly are consequences for women who abuse substances during pregnancy. Child services is called here for those cases, and they can and do remove the children that live from their mothers in some cases. When they die, on the other hand, I’m not sure there is anything that can be done, given the current state of the law. In my opinion though, those mothers are every bit as guilty of murder as a woman that locks her kid in a closet and doesn’t feed it.

            It doesn’t matter who lobbied for those laws, although from my memory, it started with pro-choice groups. There were cases where judges were asked to find someone guilty of murder for unborn children, before there were laws in effect making it certain to be criminal, and the pro-choice groups came out of the woodwork left and right with amicus briefs trying to prevent that from happening. In reality, I don’t think that pro-life groups would have lobbied at all, had it not been for the interest in these cases by the pro-choice crowd.

            Anyway, that’s about all I am going to deal with here. The rest, if it’s important enough to you, you can bring up separately in smaller diatribes.

          • MrJmm999

            “There certainly are consequences for women who abuse substances during pregnancy. Child services is called here for those cases, and they can and do remove the children that live from their mothers in some cases”

            Now you are resorting to outright lying. Please show me one case where a pregnant woman who drank had her children taken away from her this. I practice in Juvenile court. I represent kids in Abuse and Neglect cases. You have to sit around and wait for the mother to have the kid…and THEN abuse the the kid DUE to you drinking. Again, please show me a case whee children were taken away soley for a pegnant mother drinking. Wow….sounds like you may need a god lesson yourelf.. One of the commandments comes to mind.

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            My sister used to work in the maternity ward at the hospital. They were required to contact child services when a baby was born with problems due to drug or alcohol abuse during pregnancy. This is obviously only the start, but the case is opened at that moment.

            I’m going to write something after this, and it’s nothing you need to respond to. It is just to give a preface for my final paragraph.

            I don’t know if you have ever had to deal with child and family services on the receiving end before, but the whole system treats you as if you are a criminal before ever being charged with a crime, much less before you are convicted. Children are at least under threat of being removed from the beginning, and parents often get adjudicated as being abusers without an actual trial.

            If you think I don’t know what I’m talking about, I know this from personal experience from when I was a kid. My sister and my dad got in a fight. My sister bit my dad’s finger and wouldn’t release it. He eventually slapped her to get her to release it, and I watched the whole thing. Afterwards, she made up all sorts of stories that were totally untrue to get back at her dad, and even me. My siblings and I were removed from the house the next day. I was put in the juvenile system, because she had also alleged sexual abuse by me, which she recanted soon after, but it was too late. I sat in a juvenile facility for about 3 months, locked up, because the social workers decided that they wanted me to actually go through the court system, where they lied and said that my sister never changed her story. It took the guardian ad litem to even let me know, much less the judge, that she totally recanted her story. Even after that, I was kept locked up for another two weeks. If it weren’t for him, I would probably have spent years locked up. When I was released, they put me in a foster home, which I considered just as bad as jail, but I was 17 and they got tired of chasing me down when I would run away, so they let me become emancipated.

            Needless to say, since I was considered an adult after that, they couldn’t much keep me from seeing what they were doing to my parents, including my mother, who wasn’t even in the house at the time. It took almost 2 years to get all the kids back in the house, and in the end, although my one sister was the only one with stories of abuse, and everyone else’s stories contradicted hers, they adjudicated my dad for child abuse, and he had no clue about it until later when someone had his record pulled for some reason. None of us were asked to testify. I even tried to testify, and was denied. None of our statements were brought up in court, EVER.

            I am also a member of the Children’s Rights Council. Since I am pretty much the only member in my area, when the Utah director gets calls from here, he refers them to me. You wouldn’t believe the horror stories I hear about how the social workers treat parents. Although the CRC isn’t in the business of dealing with CFS so much, I end up hearing about it because of all the false claims of abuse that are made in cases of separation and divorce.

            What all this is about is to preface the next sentence. I don’t care if you work in the juvenile court! There are things that the courts are either oblivious to, or intentionally overlook. I am pretty convinced it is the latter. You may think that further abuse has happened, but I know social workers lie. I’m not sure why they find it necessary. All I know is that I don’t trust them, and I don’t trust courts, especially juvenile courts, and I am absolutely certain that you don’t know all that happens outside that court that leads up to those cases where children are removed.

          • MrJmm999

            “They were required to contact child services when a baby was born with problems due to drug or alcohol abuse during pregnancy”

            Agreed….and you know how they determine if the baby is born with drug/alcohol problems. They test the baby for drugs and alcohol. I had a case where the hospital “lost” the drug screens for kid for a long time. The child was having all sorts of problems that they could not figure out at all. Nobody filed anything because they just didn’t know. They found the screens eventually and the kid had fetal alchol syndrom and a case was started THEN.

            I do agree there are problems with the Juvenile court system and children’s services agencies. However, the State has a duty to investigate claims of abuse or neglect. The actual problem comes down to something I mentioned with another commentor here. Kids will lie their asses off to stay in the home with an abusive parent. They will lie to stay at home with a parent that sexually abuses them. I have seen cases where the father admits to the police that he sexually abused a daughter. (11 years old) ..and the child STILL lied because she didn’t want to be separated from him. (Took 2 years to convict the guy of sexual assualt and the whole time he was living with the mother) The entire family denied it. It didn’t matter to them that the child initially disclosed the abuse and actual semen was found in her panties or that father had admitted it to the police…only to recant later. All that mattered to that family was staying together. You are getting lied to constantly and it is difficult to tell the lie from the truth. Everyone that i know does their best to sort the truth from the lies.

            “and I am absolutely certain that you don’t know all that happens outside that court that leads up to those cases where children are removed.”

            Agreed, what outside observer does?. Are you suggesting that the state not look into abuse/neglect cases? Look, the bottom line is the state doesn’t WANT to take custody of children. They aren’t in the business of raising children and they know it. Additionally, they KNOW they can’t afford it. Many times…it comes down to money unfortunately.

          • MrJmm999

            Quick example that i dealt with about a year ago. Mother is on probation for something and having to do urine screens for her probation officer. She’s pregnant and testing dirty. Probation offider can’t revoke her probation because she (you’ll love this). the jail was full. Probation officer calls Children’s Services and tells them about the dirty screen. Children’s services later finds out that mother gave birth and the baby and mother just happened to both test clean at birth. The agency tried to file a motion to start up an actual court case. Judge dismissed for failure to provide sufficient information that abuse had taken place. Kid or mom tests dirty at birth…you have a case…if they don’t…you have NOTHING because it was an embryo/fetus that was being abused…not an actual child. (Of course mom got arrested in front of a crack house when she left her kid in the car for hours about a month later…but)

          • MrJmm999

            Okay…i’m going to have to back up a bit I think. I have been re reading your messages and I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding about WHY we have laws. Sepecifically criminal laws. I could go on about harming society…etc. But what it comes down to is that we all have certain “right”. I have the “right” to continue living. I have the right to my own property. (No..these are not specifically mentioned in the consitution….however, not all rights are specifically enumerated…eg. your right to marry…raise children). Also, there are simply practical reasons we have laws. There is no ONE reason we have laws. It’s many reasons. Again, I know you want ONE answer for this…but there isn’t.

            When you violate my right to continue living….or steal my property….you not ONLY harm me….but you harm the social contract that we all live under. Normally you can consent to somebody violating your rights. Homocide (murder 1st and second degree) are (i think) the only exceptions to this rule. (I cannot remember why…but i’m guessig this is a logistical issue. How are you going to REALLY prove a dead person consented. A person doesn’t know what it’s like to “not live”…so even IF you consent….you aren’t making it knowingly).

            When we prosecute someone for a crime…we are not only prosecutiing the harm done to the victim…but also the harm done to the social contract.

            Is harming an unborn child or even killing it bad. Yes…I don’t think anyone denies that. Does it rise to the level equal to haming or killing an actual child….No. Now, with regards to viability…until a fetus is “viable”…how can you make the claim that it is able to “continue living”? Should the mother who doesn’t take pre-natal vitamins and ends up miscarrying her child be charged with negligent homocide? How about if she doesn’t eat well enough and misscarries? .

            I KNOW you would like to think of this as a black and white issue. It simply isn’t. Viability IS important to the debate. So is personhood because once personhood is established….rights begin to flow from that personhood. It’s easy to say “life begins at conception” and THINK you are done with it. However, to claim that…and ignore the FACT that we don’t treat actual children and fetuses differently is to deny reality. Under your model..we SHOULD have elaborate funerals for 4 week old embryos that have been misscarried, we SHOULD call the police on the mother who drinks or smokes and we SHOULD charge the woman who doesn’t take her pre-natal vitamins and ends up misscarrying. I’m sorry but things just aren’ black and white answers to these complex questions.

          • thegillotine09

            Could I please see a copy of the social contract that I apparently signed? If not, what sort of contract is it that cannot be reviewed and is not entered into willingly but controls you by your very existence?

            “A person doesn’t know what it’s like to “not live”…so even IF you consent….you aren’t making it knowingly).”

            Can I assume that you are against euthanasia? And by the way, if you’re saying that you cannot make informed consent with something you’ve never done before then that severely limits your possibilities. I mean, say goodbye to ever trying anything new.

          • MrJmm999

            “Could I please see a copy of the social contract that I apparently signed? If not, what sort of contract is it that cannot be reviewed and is not entered into willingly but controls you by your very existence?”

            Are you being deliberately obtuse…or are you simply unaware that we have certain rights that are not specifically mentioned in the Constitution? Do you not think that simply being a member of society gives you certain responsibilities that must be lived up to to continue to be a member of that society? Where do you get the right to get married…or raise your own children? They are not mentioned in the Bill of Rights. Additionally, where does the government get its authority to step in if i am abusing my children? If you don’t understand what the the social contract is..that’s fine…but being intentionally obtuse is simiply intellectual dishonesty.

            “Can I assume that you are against euthanasia? And by the way, if you’re saying that you cannot make informed consent with something you’ve never done before then that severely limits your possibilities. I mean, say goodbye to ever trying anything new”

            I have not looked in to euthenasia enought to have a strong opinion about it one way or the other. Regarding not trying new things….honestly…are you simply being difficult…or are you simply not understanding my point. Informed consent doesn’t mean something you have never done before. I want to go skydiving for instance I have never been…but I have seen people do this before..i have fallen before….I have talked to people that have done it. I make the decision based on the KNOWLEDGE that i have gleened from several sourses. Informed consent does not mean you have to have all knowledge or to have actually done the “act” before. Again, you are simply being difficlut and you know it.

            Additionally, the idea behind informed consent is that the person offering the “act”…inform the other person about the risks involved. Now, you show me someone that can prove they have come back from the dead and THAT person could get informed consent to kill someone else.

          • thegillotine09

            ugh.
            “we have certain rights that are not specifically mentioned in the Constitution… Do you not think that simply being a member of society gives you certain responsibilities that must be lived up to to continue to be a member of that society? Where do you get the right to get married…or raise your own children?”

            … 9th amendment: “The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”

            “where does the government get its authority to step in if i am abusing my children?”

            You realize that children are people too? It’s not like they’re your property.

            “If you don’t understand what the the social contract is..that’s fine…but being intentionally obtuse is simiply intellectual dishonesty.”

            And if you don’t understand that a contract needs to be entered into voluntarily and must have explicit terms then that’s fine as long as you aren’t being intentionally obtuse ;)

            Of course you could just stop using the completely illogical “social contract” argument and try using something that actually exists.

            As far as euthanasia goes… it’s pretty clear what the consequences are. About a 100% chance of death. We don’t tend to take into account potential afterlives when we make agreements.

            In any case are you seriously suggesting that someone who asks to be put out of their misery isn’t consenting to being put out of their misery?

          • MrJmm999

            I’m not sure why you said…”Ugh” at the beginning of your post. I said that we have rights that are not specifically mentioned in the constitution. Then you cite the 9th amendment which says that the rights enumerated specifically in the Constitution are not exhaustive. The 9th amendment is making my point exactly. Again, not sure where you are getting the “ugh” from.

            “You realize that children are people too? It’s not like they’re your property.”

            Strange, because nearly every abused child I have dealt with wants to remain at home with their mother of father. The child does NOT want the state/government to step in and remove the child from the home or prosecute the parent. (2 separate actions). You have no plaintiff if the state doesn’t step in. Again, I ask you, where does the government get its authority and overrule the wishes of the parent AND the child? You said that

            “And if you don’t understand that a contract needs to be entered into voluntarily and must have explicit terms then that’s fine as long as you aren’t being intentionally obtuse ;)

            Of course you could just stop using the completely illogical “social contract” argument and try using something that actually exists.”

            Without this social contract I again ask, were does the state get its authoritiy to in the place of the parent when the child is abused? (This is just one of many times the state has powers that are not specifically enumerated and many of the rights that people have that are not specicifically enumerated).

          • David John Wellman

            The social contract can be reviewed and modified via your representatives in government, and it was entered into willingly by your parents, on your behalf, when they chose for you to have citizenship in this country.

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            I hate to be obvious, but you can’t be forced to honor a contract done in your name by your parents. They are responsible.

          • David John Wellman

            That’s true. Once you come of age, and your parents lose the right to contract for you, you can get out of the contract anytime you’d like by renouncing your citizenship and leaving the country.

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            It seems that the individual should come before the state. If I was born here, why should I have to leave the country in order to not be bound by the contract. What if someone doesn’t have the means to leave the country. They shouldn’t be forced.

            Anyway, this whole thing is a sidetrack, although I do find it an interesting problem. I keep being told to read “Man Without a Country”, but I haven’t gotten around to it yet.

          • David John Wellman

            You would have to leave if you were to break the contract because otherwise you would enjoy the benefits of residence in the United States without paying for it.

            If you don’t have the means to leave the country, then you’d have to procure them somehow. The point is that there is, generally, no legal barrier in the US preventing you from doing this. They are not legally forced to stay.

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            How should one live in the place they are born without being forced to take part of what the people give? You forget, it’s not the government that gives anything, it is the people.

            Further, how is one to acquire the means to leave the country when the only way to do so is to take advantage of the government’s services. It’s a catch 22, and it’s not even close to fair to anyone that doesn’t want to be part of it.

            How about the government get out of the business of forcing individuals to accept government services in any way? The fact is, when we get to that kind of government, hardly anyone would even contemplate not being part of it.

          • David John Wellman

            You seem to be saying that someone who cannot leave the country without, for example, using the government-built road to get to the airport doesn’t really have the right to leave the country. That makes no sense to me. If you’re not saying that, could you phrase your point a different way?

            Regarding your third paragraph, that’s impossible. You cannot, for instance, opt out of receiving the benefits of national defense. And I don’t know from where you got the idea that people would massively embrace an impossibility, much less the inclination to call that “fact.” It is impossible for people to embrace an actual impossibility.

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            How do you pay to leave the country without getting an ID from the government? How do you leave without government printed money? How do you get that money without owing taxes?

            As for national defense, defense from what? I don’t benefit from national defense, the government does.

            As for my third paragraph, everything the government does impedes the freedoms of its people in some way. While I understand the reason to have government, a government that reasonably protects people from each other while limiting itself in almost every other way as much as possible actually promotes freedom. While I am not suggesting anarchy is the way, since people can’t be trusted to not screw each other, I actually think that is the ideal if humanity ever gets to the point that it would work.

          • David John Wellman

            Even granting that you have to take advantages of some of the government’s services in order to leave, how does it follow that you don’t actually have the right to leave?

            Your second paragraph is one of the silliest things I’ve ever read on the internet, and that’s saying a lot.

            As for your third paragraph, you assume that (a) maximal freedom should be the overriding aim in any society, and that (b) freedom is measured solely in terms of the absence of government restrictions. I reject both of those notions.

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            You can discount that national defense is something that is only necessary because governments exist and because governments want to keep their control, but it is the truth of the matter.

            You can also reject that freedom should be the aim of any society, but there are many people like me. In fact, there are many that reject any government at all. In a time of easy communication, it is most likely that the people would supply their own social programs if it weren’t that they have been trained to believe that the government should be responsible for their happiness.

            I don’t expect you to accept it. I’m just saying that government should not have sovereignty over individuals, and that there is a way to ensure that. It all starts with the “social contract”.

          • MrJmm999

            Where does the gov’t get the power to step in in cases of child abuse and take over responsibility for raising the child? Do you not think the gov’t has this power when there is documented abuse?

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            Apparently you haven’t followed what I have been saying. I’m not a complete anarchist. I understand that there needs to be some authority to step in when people are harming other people. All I am saying is that government should be limited to that. National government shouldn’t be in the business of welfare, be that individual or corporate. It shouldn’t be in the business of promoting businesses. It shouldn’t be in the business of wealth redistribution. It shouldn’t be in the business of schools.

            I am not saying that there shouldn’t be protections. I am also not saying that there should be no schools or welfare. I am saying that the way it is now, the national government has too much control in areas where they are too far removed from the citizens they govern to properly decide the services that the citizens need and the ones they don’t need or want.

          • MrJmm999

            You ramble on with rhetoric. “Gov’t shouldn’t be in business of wealth redistrubution”. Do you agree that gov’t has the responsibility to educate children…or only the rich that have the funds to support education. Do you think that only rich children deserve protection from abuse.? Do poor neighborhoods not deserve police protection? All forms of “wealth redistribution”. You make bold statements….but obviously have not thought them through. Why do i get the feeling this REALLY comes down to..”i don’t like paying my taxes”
            Again, I ask where does the government get the right to step in and protect abused children?

          • David John Wellman

            That post reads like a cheerful admission that you’re a crackpot. I don’t think anything more needs to be said here.

          • thegillotine09

            Good one there being “volunteered” by your parents. And if I don’t want to financially support a pointless aggressive war in the Middle East I can choose not to pay for it right? Oh no wait if I do that then people with guns will come to my house and take me to prison.

            That’s some contract there. Sounds an awful lot like the “contract” slaves had with their masters. “Volunteered” into servitude by your parents and the only recourse you have is to appeal to your unresponsive and unaccountable masters who could care less what happens to you.

            So now I’ve got you supporting the British monarchy and slavery. What’s next?

          • David John Wellman

            You can modify your obligations in the social contract via your representatives in Congress. If this isn’t satisfactory, you can get out of the contract by renouncing your citizenship and leaving the country.

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            It doesn’t matter if we have funerals for 4 week old embryos. We charge people with murder if they kill a 4 week old embryo, and based on what you have just said, that equates 4 week old embryos to persons, which means the rest of your argument fails right there, since persons are protected from murder.

            All of the other stuff about when a mother should be charged with murder is quite a different topic, although not entirely unlinked. We first need to establish who is and isn’t protected from murder.

          • MrJmm999

            “We charge people with murder if they kill a 4 week old embryo”

            Really? Please show me one case where a person who killed an embryo was charged with first degree murder. Find one please. They may have been charged with muder..or second degree murder…but again..this shows the distinction between born and unborn. You do understand the differences don’t you…..or do i need to also explain the differences between different types of homocide.

            “which means the rest of your argument fails right there, since persons are protected from murder.”

            Wow…reach much? Tell you what, if i can show you that we do not charge people with the same crime for killing an embyo than if they killed a child…would YOU admit that a fetus/embryo is NOT a person? Of coure you wouldn’t. Care to find out?
            Additionally, even IF you are right (and you are not)….abortions are specifically excluded from any and all statutes dealing with killing an unborn. Since these statues exclude abortion…would you admit that it is NOT murder. Using your logic…..it MUST not be murder to perform an abortion.

            I really like how you selectively look at certain facts in your favor..and ignore others. I know some states say that killing an unborn is homocide in some states and murder in others. However, what you don’t seem to grasp is that there are several degrees of murder and even more degrees of homocide.

            I also like how you simply ignore questions from me that you simply don’t like…and hang onto a legal claim that you don’t understand.
            Are you REALLY going to base your entire argument on the fact that some states legislatures have decided to say that killing an unborn is a crime? Your argument that this is killing a person sort of falls apart when EVERY statute like this specifically excludes abortions. If you want to…feel free to look this up. I did.

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            I find it telling how angry your tone is. I have been making my case without it, yet when you respond, instead of responding in as calm a manner, you get upset.

            Of course this is an issue that brings out emotions. Yours have obviously got your panties in a bunch, and that makes it very difficult for me to want to deal with you. On top of that, you seem to get upset that I don’t deal with every single little idea you bring to the table, which, while possible, just isn’t feasible considering your William Lane Craig style shotgun approach.

            Bring up a few issues in a short post, in a calm manner, and I will deal with those issues. I neither have the time, nor desire, to deal with angry three page manifestos. I am fully capable of having disagreements and not being angry or mean in my discussion of it, and I expect the same level of respect in return.

            Thank you

          • MrJmm999

            Hmmmm strange someone would get angry when they are told time and time again that they support killing children. Tell you what, you stop the rhetoric..and I won’t get upset with you. Deal?

            WLC shyle shotgun approach? I’m sorry that your arguements have so many flaws that I am unalbe to deal with all of them as quickly as you like.

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            I never said you support killing children. Not once. It may seem implied, but I don’t look at it that way.

            You don’t consider it a child. You don’t consider it a person. You may not even consider it human. Because of that, I can understand why you would feel the way you do. It doesn’t make someone an evil child killer because they don’t believe the same way I do, and I will never say that. It means that we understand things differently, and likely always will.

            On the other hand, there are people that believe like me, that human life, even if it isn’t sentient or autonomously viable, generally deserves to be protected. Because I believe that way, I am compelled to act in a manner consistent with that belief.

            I am not discussing this with you to convince you of anything. I am doing it for those others that may read what I have to say who may be on the fence about it, or at least able to read what I say without feeling accused.

            It does make me wonder though. If you don’t support killing children, why would that be the thought going through your head about it when people disagree with your position?

          • MrJmm999

            “Because I believe that way, I am compelled to act in a manner consistent with that belief.”

            Then I really need to ask: If you truly believe that abortion is killing a child….do you not have a moral responsibility to do ANYTHING you can to stop this killing…including killing the murderer from killing hundreds/thousands?

            “If you don’t support killing children, why would that be the thought going through your head about it when people disagree with your position? ”

            First, you openly admit that you have implied that I support killing children. Secondly, you may want to read others comments here. I think that will eluminate why I get the “thought” that people are accusing those on the Pro-Life side of the debate of supporting the murder of children.

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            If you truly believe that abortion is killing a child….do you not have a moral responsibility to do ANYTHING you can to stop this killing…including killing the murderer from killing hundreds/thousands?

            I’m finding it really hard to take you seriously.

          • MrJmm999

            “I’m finding it really hard to take you seriously”

            And now we come full circle. I started out this thred by noting that it is not a serous discussion when you use emotional rhetoric like “abortion is the murder of children” I know you like the rhetoric…but you really have to ask youself….”why don’t i REALLY treat these like i would treat an actual mass murder.” The fact that the question is ridiculous shows that you really don’t think it is like someone killing hundreds of actual children every month.

          • http://godlessons.com Godlessons

            Full circle? Yes, you have come full circle, from being ridiculous to being again ridiculous. We don’t just generally go around killing people because they disagree with us. We leave that up to the people in control of those kinds of things. Your mere suggestion that I want to kill thousands of people is ridiculous and apparently only an attempt to make sure that nothing of substance gets dealt with.

            Between your attitude and your inability to have an honest discussion, I’m done with you.

          • MrJmm999

            “We don’t just generally go around killing people because they disagree with us.”

            Wow…2 days ago you were comparing abortion to murdering children. When pushed into a corner abour your actual attitude about the moral issue….now suddently it’s just a disareement. Do you consider “murdering children” a mere disagreement?

  • Balanceseeker

    Hello Everyone,

    Last night, I ran into a video by SisyphusRedeemed, one of my favorite youtubers, that really gets away from this whole personhood of the fetus argument.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8f4sz0jStE

    and

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8tyiJi4PAk

    In it, and in the subsequent response video, he presents an argument by J.J. Thomson called “The Violinist” that argues even if we grant the status of personhood to the fetus, that it does not follow that abortion is wrong. I will summarize it here, but I suggest everyone go watch the videos in question for the full coverage.

    Suppose that you wake up one morning to find out that you have been kidnapped by a music appreciation group and medically hooked up to a famous violinist. The violinist’s kidneys are failing him, and so now, his blood is being cleaned by your kidneys. Come to find out, you have some rare blood type and as such, you are the only person on earth able to perform this task for the violinist. If you disconnect yourself from this violinist, he will die. The question then is, are you morally obligated to remain connected to the violinist?

    Of course, the Thomson concludes, “Obviously not.” The violinist is using your body against your will, and you have a right to dictate who can use your body. Indeed, killing a rapist to protect oneself from being raped is often considered self-defense, and that too is a case of placing one’s bodily integrity over the life of another.

  • Jermbot15

    The Wright Brothers were printers and newspaper publishers/editors who went into bicycle repair as a fad to cover expenses. They fit perfectly into this ‘left’s’ view of an intellectual. But you’re not talking about the “left’s” view of an intellectual, you’re talking about the ‘right’s’ view of an intellectual, the straw man of the “upper east side” is a creation of your political idealogy, not mine Brock.

    • theowarner

      Plus, while the left certainly has a place for the “wine and cheese” crowd that Brock seems to hate, the Left also has a place for people who don’t like wine and cheese. Liberals can be all sorts of person as far as I’m concerned.

      I don’t know why Brock tries to make this into a class warfare thing.

      • Christ724

        I agree. I also don’t understand why he keeps bringing up Karl Marx. Marx did not like liberals and Marxists don’t like liberals, I don’t wtf is going on in his head.

  • Christ724

    From what I have seen so far, this debate has taken quite a turn and I’m enjoying myself reading some of these arguments. Being a fan of Wittgenstein, I like reading how many definitions of the words we are using when discussing abortion. Unfortunately Brock has not even bothered to participate aside from just randomly posting and then disappearing. To be honest, I’m not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing.

    • theowarner

      Those few posts he leaves aren’t even responsive… just random quotes or rhetorical position points.

      • thegillotine09

        Then how about responding to my critique of your essay since apparently I’m the only one with the manly bits to debate you (and I even agree with you on all your conclusions).

        • theowarner

          Jeeze… where are these?

          • thegillotine09

            Do a Ctrl+F for “noncensentual”. I’m the only one who has used that word in the comment section.

      • http://twitter.com/THEAtheistAnti The Atheist Antidote

        sorry theo

        It is a time thing this week.

  • TheoSucksCock

    Theo Warner thinks logic and reason is hateful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uf9XnVTeuQ

  • Adam Keeney

    Theo is losing. It’s too bad he can’t lose weight though.

  • David John Wellman

    Haysoos and I had a discussion about the difference between a woman’s right to consent to being impregnated and her right to consent to being pregnant at a given moment; he suggested that consenting to the former might give tacit consent to the latter for the duration of the pregnancy. I dealt with this in the appropriate subthread (search for the phrase “when I say that a woman” to read it), and intended this as a supplemental response, but I think it’s interesting enough to start its own subthread.

    Even if personhood began at conception (or an arbitrarily early time in development), a woman would still have a right to even an elective abortion at any time, because her right to bodily autonomy is an inalienable right. What inalienable means in this context is that, not only can that right be taken away from her, she cannot even voluntarily surrender it.

    Examples: Transplant operation contracts cannot stipulate that the donor cannot back out of the contract prior to the operation. Surrogacy contracts cannot stipulate that the mother is not allowed to abort during her pregnancy. Such contracts would be unenforceable. A more down-to-earth example: a woman cannot be forced to have sex with a man because she said yes to him back at the bar.

    Even if the woman did give tacit consent to pregnancy simply by having intercourse (and I’ve argued elsewhere that this does not occur) — indeed, even if she intended to become pregnant — she cannot at any time surrender her right to control what happens to her body. She retains that right at all times. Thus, she has the right to abort her pregnancy at all times.

    • Haysoos

      Though I argued against this point, I am actually somewhat undecided on whether to accept your position or the one I was arguing. The one additional thing I will say is that I don’t believe there is anything else in the world that can be used as a good analogy for pregnancy, and so there aren’t any other situations one can go to for guidance when trying to determine if the importance of the life of the fetus outweighs the importance of a woman’s right to bodily autonomy. Perhaps the best analogy is that someone requires a kidney and you’re the only one in the world who is a match, but even then, you didn’t make a choice that you knew has a chance of putting you in that dilemma, and pregnancy doesn’t result in a part of your body being permanently removed (unless the pregnancy causes a health risk to the mother, at which point abortion is certainly justified.)

      • David John Wellman

        Making a choice that you’re aware carries a risk of an unwanted consequence does not grant tacit consent to that consequence occurring.

  • David John Wellman

    Brock — whose relative absence in this thread has been conspicuous given his desire for involved discussion — did raise an interesting argument from Ernest van den Haag, by way of a Dennis Prager cut and paste.

    van den Haag proposed a thought experiment that he believed was a compelling argument for the deterrence effect of the death penalty: Suppose a state imposed the death penalty for murders committed on a Monday, Wednesday or Friday, and life imprisonment for murders committed on other days. He believes we would see a large difference in the murder rates between the different days of the week.

    There are three fatal problems with this argument. First, as Theo pointed out, the experiment is already being carried out in a similar way, in that the death penalty is imposed in some states and life imprisonment in others. Generally, crime rates are lower in the latter.

    Second, intelligent pre-meditated murderers may give thought to the question of whether they would prefer life imprisonment or death for the crime they are going to commit, but it is not their primary concern. Their primary concern is how they are going to commit the murder and not get caught. And of course, less-than-intelligent premeditated murderers and those who kill in the heat of the moment aren’t going to give a damn what day it is. Any deterrence effect would therefore be negligible.

    Third, carry the thought experiment one step further: suppose the state imposed death by lethal injection for murders committed on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, and death by slow and horrendous torture. If the murder rates between the days showed that torture had a deterrence effect, are we then justified to institute it as a punishment? Most people would argue no.

    A deterrence proponent might object that that would be prevented by the “cruel and unusual punishment” clause of the Constitution — and from a legal standpoint, that objection may be correct, but the objector would still have to explain how his advocacy of as much deterrence of murder as possible can be reconciled with the moral basis of that clause. I doubt that this can be done.

    I conclude, then, that van den Haag’s thought experiment fails to establish a compelling argument for the death penalty on the grounds of deterrence.

    • David John Wellman

      That sentence in the fifth paragraph should read, “death by slow and horrendous torture for murders committed on Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday and Sunday.”

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  • AyameTan

    If a fertilised egg is a human, then a newborn baby is a medical doctor.

    Potential does not equate to actuality, Brock. You lose.

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