William Lane Craig vs. Stephen Hawking

by Andy Burke on September 14, 2010

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With the recent release of Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow’s new book The Grand Design, a slew of news outlets published stories with provocative titles such as CNN‘s “God Didn’t Create the Universe” and ABC‘s “Science Makes God Unnecessary.”  Coincidentally, William Lane Craig, our favorite Christian apologist, has been releasing podcasts concerning his cosmological argument which happen to briefly criticize Hawking’s cosmology.

So, what does Craig have to say about Hawking? And are his criticisms valid? Well, first let’s get a bit of background on what Hawking is actually proposing.

AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE STANDARD

Contrary to what William Lane Craig often argues, the problems with using the Standard Big Bang model to describe the origin of the universe are well-accepted among contemporary physicists and cosmologists.  Rather than elaborating on the details (as I’ve done here and here), I’ll simply state that, among other issues, the singularity predicted by the Standard model is contradicted by what we know about quantum mechanics.

Indeed, Hawking and Mlodinow make this point bluntly in The Grand Design (pg. 128) where they write, ”although one can think of the big bang picture as a valid description of early times, it is wrong to take the big bang literally, that is, to think of Einstein’s theory [general relativity] as providing a true picture of the origin of the universe. That is because general relativity predicts there to be a point in time at which the temperature, density, and curvature of the universe are all infinite, a situation mathematicians call a singularity. To a physicist this means that Einstein’s theory breaks down at that point and therefore cannot be used to predict how the universe began, only how it evolved afterward.”

For this reason, physicists have proposed a number of ideas to avoid this breakdown of general relativity in order to explain the origin of the universe.  One of these ideas which has garnered much discussion is Hawking’s “no-boundary proposal,” first popularly articulated in his 1988 best-seller A Brief History of Time.  Hawking’s proposal is fairly easy to understand yet very difficult to imagine.  He describes time as being finite but without a boundary. Just think of time as being analogous to a sphere: it has a finite amount of surface area but no “beginning” or “end.”

As Hawking and Mlodinow explain, ”In the early universe — when the universe was small enough to be governed by both general relativity and quantum theory — there were effectively four dimensions of space and none of time.  … The realization that time can behave like another direction of space means that one can get rid of the problem of time having a beginning … when one combines the general theory of relativity with quantum theory, the question of what happened before the beginning of the universe is rendered meaningless” (The Grand Design, pg. 134-135).

Craig’s main criticism of this proposal focuses on the way in which Hawking converts the time dimension to a fourth spacial dimension using imaginary numbers.  As Craig explained in a recent Reasonable Faith podcast, ”Now, the interesting thing about this is that Hawking was able to achieve this result only by using imaginary numbers for the time variable.  Now, imaginary numbers are numbers which are the products of the square root of negative one. Now, there’s no real number that is the square root of a negative number … And the problem is that although these are useful tools in computations, nobody has any idea what it would mean to talk about imaginary time anymore than talking about the imaginary volume of this room … The use of imaginary numbers is just a mathematical device to make the equations easier to solve … when you reconvert to real numbers in [Hawking's] model, presto, the singularity reappears.”  Craig then goes on to claim outright that imaginary time “has no physical significance.”

IMAGINARY TIME VS REAL TIME

It should first be pointed out that imaginary numbers aren’t any more “imaginary” than most real numbers.  As mathematicians John Conway and Richard Guy write, imaginary numbers “turn out to be invaluable in many applications of mathematics to engineering, physics, and almost every other science.  Moreover, these numbers obey all the rules which you already know for ‘real’ numbers” (The Book of Numbers, pg. 212).

Conway and Guy go on to explain that irrational numbers (which are a subset of “real” numbers) , such as √2 or pi, don’t truly exist in the physical sense, yet these numbers certainly go a long way in helping us to understand reality.   A similar conclusion can be drawn about negative numbers.  For example, does negative money make sense in the real world?  Well, “negative dollars” certainly don’t exist, but they still go a long way in helping us to describe the (very real) concept of debt.

So, can imaginary numbers be used to describe the concept of time in the very early universe?  Luckily, this is discussed at length in A Brief History of Time (pg. 139).  ”If the universe really is in such a quantum state, there would be no singularities in the history of the universe in imaginary time.  … In real time, the universe has a beginning and end at singularities that form a boundary to space-time and at which the laws of science break down. But in imaginary time, there are no singularities or boundaries.  So maybe what we call imaginary time is really more basic, and what we call real time is just an idea that we invent to help us describe what we think the universe is like.”  Hawking then suggests that asking the question “which is real” might be irrelevant, “It is simply a matter of which is the more useful description.”

While I personally have no idea whether “imaginary time” exists or not, any honest person will admit that it’s an intriguing possibility.  Craig, on the other hand, seems to reject the idea of “imaginary time” outright, the motivation for which should be obvious:  As long as the origin of the universe remains completely mysterious to science, it creates a nice gap which Craig can fill with God via the Kalam Cosmological Argument.

But maybe I’m being a bit too critical. Maybe Craig truly believes that the idea of an all-powerful, disembodied mind creating the entire universe for the benefit of a single species of mammals is simply more plausible than the idea that time could be accurately described using imaginary numbers.  The world may never know.

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  1. Did the Universe Come from Nothing?
  • Graffight

    Though I can understand how a negative, or imaginary number can correlate with reality, like in your example of debt. I’m not sure I can comprehend how such a thing can exist in physical reality. Even when you take something into account like anti matter, it’s not negative matter, rather it’s just opposite matter ie, it still exists. It’s difficult to imagine someone could hold something like negative 1 dollar in their hand. I’m inclined to agree with Craig on this one, ideas like infinity, and imaginary numbers may be quite useful in describing reality, but I don’t see how they could be actual physical entities.

    • Maurice

      As Stephen Hawking puts it, ” One can picture it in the following way. One can think of ordinary, real, time as a horizontal line. On the left, one has the past, and on the right, the future. But there’s another kind of time in the vertical direction. This is called imaginary time, because it is not the kind of time we normally experience. But in a sense, it is just as real, as what we call real time.”
      You say that you cannot comprehend how imaginary time can exist in reality, yet almost everything we have learned about time since relativity is counter intuitive to how we experience time. Because something seems counter intuitive is not grounds to dismiss it, especially when it is one of the best solutions to the origin of our universe.

      • Graffight

        Yes, but the issue of time seems to be counterintuitive to everything we know about reality. Now i’m not well versed on relativity, or time theory or any of that, so this may be where the conversation ends due to my lack of understanding, but if time is a part of physical reality just like the computer i’m typing on, how can there possibly be negative time. I can see how it could be useful as a concept, but i want to know if it actually exists. as far as everything i know…negatives and imaginaries don’t exist in physical reality. and it seems that every theory that is presented about the origin of the universe requires their use…this seems to me to be as implausable as atheists claim God is.

    • http://www.facebook.com/KiefIsChief Christopher Harris

      “Even when you take something into account like anti matter, it’s not negative matter, rather it’s just opposite matter ie, it still exists.”
      Anti-matter has opposite charges from normal matter. That is, the anti-matter version of a proton (the antiproton) has a negative charge. The anti-matter version of an electron (the positron) has a positive charge. So in a sense, yes, it is ‘negative matter.’ If you multiply the positive by the negative, you get a negative; if you multiply the negative by a negative, you get a positive. 
      Saying that anti-matter is different from imaginary time because anti-matter exists, though, seems like you’re assuming imaginary time doesn’t exist a priori.

      “It’s difficult to imagine someone could hold something like negative 1 dollar in their hand.”
      Possibly, but that is because we haven’t arbitrarily made a $-1.

      I agree that time moving at right angles to our own timeline seems extremely odd, but intuition doesn’t always get us too far :)

  • Matthew

    Interesting that Craig’s motivations are so transparent but Hawking’s are not. I guess these kinds of blogs go hand-in-hand with cheap shots though.

    • Maurice

      Hawking’s motivations are as clear as Craig’s. Hawking has always stated his goal in life has been to understand the universe. He has even admitted when he is wrong and changed sides. However Craig is not one to change opinion or throw away his preconcieved notions.

  • Piemaster

    It’s weird because when Quark Theory was first proposed, it was not taken to describe physical entities either. Nowadays, however, we have found evidence in labs that quarks exist and use the quark theory in what is now called quantum mechanics. Perhaps the concept of time as imaginary numbers is not far off.

    As a mathematician, I would be thoroughly excited to see physics majors exploring the complex plane (i.e. real numbers on the x-axis, imaginary numbers on the y-axis) when discussing mechanics. Perhaps it is in the complex plane that some equation connecting mechanics, electricity, and the nuclear forces can be found. Granted, all of this is pure speculation, but it’s interesting nonetheless.

  • Maurice

    Here is also an interesting quote that kind of cleared up this whole imaginary time thing for me, from a website called everythingforever.com

    “It takes very little reasoning to figure out that if the universe exists in an unseen way without beginning or end, at right angles to regular time, then that time is simply more elementary and even more real than ordinary clock time. Thus it seems the term imaginary applies more accurately to our time. If the universe exists in another time reference where conditions are permanent or static, suddenly it doesn’t matter that we humans so convincingly observe a beginning and a possible future end to our ordinary clock time, since the other time reference applies regardless of our sense of where we are in time. The universe could be said to exist before our clock time began, and after time ends. The past and future can be said to exist now. Obviously imaginary time relates more directly than our own time to existence itself.”

    The really great point that is brought up is that with imaginary time, you can have past, present, and future events in clock time existing at the same time. This really goes right along with the main ideas of relativity.

    • Graffight

      hmm…maybe I just don’t understnand. just because clock time may not corolate directly with actual time does not mean that clock time is happening simultaniously. It could be happening much faster than actual time, or slower…i’m not sure if there is any way of knowing. This stuff seems so very speculative.

  • http://www.logosfera.ro/ Logosfera

    It’s funny how the same man that cannot conceive that time can be measured with imaginary numbers thinks that there is such thing as “existence outside time” (the very word “existence” is meaningless without the time component).
    Talking about intellectual integrity.

    • Graffight

      who believes in existance outside of time?

      • Salitica

        on of the primary theistic arguments is that the abrahamic god is defined as outdside time

  • Jonathan

    Actually, timeless existence had been known in the field of philosophy for a very long time. Some believe that abstract objects exist in this manner.

    Also, I would agree with Craig on this one. Most people I know who are familiar with imaginary numbers tend to suggest that it is indeed just a “tool” to help solve certain mathematical problems. It should be converted back if the model that uses it were to have some relation to the real world

    • Maurice

      How are abstract items timeless in any way? Timeless existence is internally inconsistent.

      • Graffight

        really? how long has the number 1 existed?

        • Salitica

          the number 1 has existed for approximately 5300 years.

  • Muto

    I could not disagree with Craig more strongly. While it is true that complex numbers are introduced to help calculations, we have no way of knowing if the physical reality of time is like akin to complex numbers or not. To say that it is or is not is nothing but blind speculation. In the history of physics there are many things that were only introduced as mathematical trickery but turned out to be physical reality most prominently: electric fields.

  • Avi Bueno

    I’m monumentally interested in this material, incredibly drawn in by the way in which Hawking (and you) present the material, but I’m far from convinced by any of this. There are numerous issues with all of this, not the least of which is the fact that I find absolutely nothing contained in Hawking’s commentary or others’ commentary that really explains what imaginary time would be, even as a theoretical construct allowing us to utilize mathematical problems in physics and other investigations into reality.

  • AestusL4

    I agree with Avi. I’m a lay man at this stuff, and though I would like to jump on board this idea that science can prove the universe could exist without a god, such concepts need to be seriously investigated before I’ll bring this up in a debate with a theist.

  • Maurice

    There is a reason it’s called theoretical physics. However there is no doubt that the no boundary proposal is a serious contender in explaining our origins.

  • Avi Bueno

    Yes, we understand it’s called “theoretical”, but that terminology is not supplanted there so that we somehow imagine this is all actually mind games and intellectual masturbation. The idea, at least as its presented by Hawking (and others), is that it has serious applicability, however, I have yet to see an explanation as to its actual uses, applicability, and general meaningfulness.

    That is all that’s being asked for here; that’s certainly NOT an excessive request.

  • Al

    It seems to me that the crux that these discussions always hinge upon is the inability of people to acknowledge or even be aware of how poorly their conceptions of time really are. Time and space are merely states of affairs, it is inappropriate to suggest that time or space has a shape or direction unless one has good reason to. Hawking’s description of the boundless shape of time can account for the existence of the universe and our experience of it. Craig description of an A-theory, linear, directional time cannot even account for our own history. In keeping with Hawking’s notion of model dependent realism, a B-theory, boundless space-time is tremendously more useful than Craig’s version of time.

  • mojo.rhythm

    It doesn’t matter. Craig’s Kalam cosmological argument presupposes a dynamic view of time. There is literally not a single physicist who shares Craigs notions on the ontology of time; of which are necessary for the argument. In relativistic cosmology, things don’t “come into being” and “go out of being”, they are extended finitely in the later then and earlier than directions. This devastates both premises of the Kalam. Of course Craig NEVER tells his flock this embarrassing fact, the best he does is briefly mention it waist-deep in his esoteric, abstruse, technical literature which most Christians never read. Even if I were a Christian I would be deeply ashamed to be associated with such a dishonest, lying, sophomoric, twisted ass-hat.

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  • Athademic Mooch Snatcher

    “But maybe I’m being a bit too critical. Maybe Craig truly believes that the idea of an all-powerful, disembodied mind creating the entire universe for the benefit of a single species of mammals is simply more plausible than the idea that time could be accurately described using imaginary numbers. The world may never know.”

    Damn, a cheapshot! Hard to make the light of rationality shine any brighter on the issue at hand. Light is an enemy if ones mission is to hide the hideous face of truth.

  • Necr0sys

    As far as my understanding goes, time is part of physical reality, time space and matter go hand in hand. This is what we know. There is a past, present and future. Things happen, events take place because of this relationship. Hawkings is going on about how if somehow time pre-existed the Big Bang, the process was simply a step in evolution. This doesn’t make sense because as we know space and matter are symmetrical with time – the one could not exist without the other. We know from the Big Bang, space and matter came into existence, so why should time not be included? Referrring to time as finite but with no boundaries is giving it attributes which are firstly speculative and secondly non purposeful to it’s nature. If we had to liken time to a sphere, eventually we would be crossing past events, which as we know is impossible.

    As for Craig’s point of view, if time, space and matter had to come into existence simultaneously, it makes sense to think that something not constraint to the laws of those dimensions created them, as common sense should tell you things do not just create themselves from nothing. If an object does not exist, how does it create itself? It doesn’t. From this viewpoint, the only way anything could ever come into existence, is if the original source is eternal. By definition, that is God.

    The reason I believe Craig’s viewpoint to be more probable, is because we are here discussing it. It’s completely beyond me how anyone can believe existence as a whole  came about from nothing and by itself.

    • Antybu86

      Eh, I think you are misunderstanding Hawking’s idea. To start, Hawking doesn’t actually propose that time existed before the big bang – I’m not quite sure where you’re getting that from. Second, picturing time as a sphere is really just a geometrical analogy, and thinking that “eventually we would be crossing past events” might be taking that analogy a bit to literally.

      And your agreement with Craig, well I’m not sure that makes much sense either. The idea of a being existing and then creating outside of time poses too many problems to discuss here, but in addition you seem to define “God” as whatever created the universe which is a bit presumptive because, frankly, the common idea of “God” is much more complicated then just “whatever caused the universe.”

      Furthermore, you are essentially setting up a strawman at the end (sorry, I hate to bring up such an overused fallacy-buzzword). If you were to read Hawkings work, even he doesn’t think that the universe “came about from nothing and by itself.” Craig has made this point himself. Hawking and Mlodinow suggest that gravity and quantum mechanics (or whatever “theory of everything” that encompasses the two) exist independent of the universe and that these laws, though it’s a mystery to them why they exist, necessitate that a universe exist. …You can pick that apart all you want, but at least correctly represent them.

  • Hoapologist

    Really enjoyed the fair tone throughout the article, right up untill the mocking ending.
    Christian theology does not teach that all this was created for homo sapiens sapiens.
    Just because “mans” creation is placed chronologically after the creation of the universe in Genesis, it does not speak to a creator’s reasons for starting the whole thing in the first place.
    Thanks again for the article… I’ll read your other links.

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